Another Day
Jul. 30th, 2006 11:08 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
eumeliaHezbollah are ruthless, heartless human beings.
Again and again they claim to have Lebanon's interests at heart - when in fact they are merely using Lebanon as a base in order to further Syrian and Iranian agendas.
Again and again they have claimed Israel to be targeting civilian outposts for destruction - Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation which uses guerrilla tactics to fight; that means it uses the local population as #1 Weapons stations, #2 "Military" bases, #3 Canon fodder - If anyone thinks Hezbollah didn't first stuff that building in Qana with weapons (knowing Israel would find that weapons store) and then stuffed it with innocent civilians just so Israel would bomb that building and make the world see "Israel for the monster it is", then you are sorely mistaken, because that is exactly what they did.
Hezbollah has and is using and abusing the Lebanese, I've said this before and I'll say it again, Hezbollah and Nassrallah couldn't give a naked, shit infested rat's ass, over the Lebanese, who they would sacrifice in order to promote their own hate and war mongering aggression filled agendas.
Moreover, Fouad Sanyora, Lebanon's Prime Minister, thanked... *thanked* Hezbollah for standing up to Israel. That man is corrupt, Hezbollah is not Lebanon's army, it is, as I've stated, an organisation interested on furthering Syrian and Iranian interests! He has let his people down in a way I cannot imagine them ever recovering from.
Israel does what it can to warn civilians about coming attacks, Israel hides nothing of what it does; Hezbollah claimed they had no rocket launching out posts in Qana, we proved they did and attacked, we warned the civilians (and that includes Hezbollah, because the message is heard by everyone) and Hezbollah used those innocents to create anti-Israeli propaganda. They used human lives in the most callous, disgusting way possible.
Israel does not want to fight in villages, but Hezbollah uses those villages as outposts and villages that harbour criminals know what to expect, because we tell them to leave!
Hezbollah fires missiles every, goddamn, day! On regular, innocent, Israeli, civilians, it is not the Lebanese army doing this and we are not fighting the Lebanese army, but the world refuses to see Hezbollah for what they really are and the Lebanese are the ones suffering from a corrupt leader, a terrorist organization using, abusing and basically murdering them and an army (IDF) that has no choice but to bomb them because of the reasons above.
Hezbollah has made villages into battle fields and dead children into propaganda, the IDF has done everything in it's power to target only Hezbollah outposts and rocket launchers.
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with an illegal militia wing using Lebanon as a base of operations. The IDF is the army of a sovereign country.
Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers (and has great influence over the kidnappers of a third), the IDF reacted to a Casus Belli!
Hezbollah are the ones who began fighting and in that instant they became the aggressors, Israel will do what it can to end this with the least amount of death on either side, because that is how we try to do things. Hezbollah couldn't care less about how many innocent people die, the more Lebanese civilians die, the better anti-Israel propaganda Hezbollah has and so they are willing to use an many people as possible in order to get that end, because the means are really not an issue for them.
Again and again they claim to have Lebanon's interests at heart - when in fact they are merely using Lebanon as a base in order to further Syrian and Iranian agendas.
Again and again they have claimed Israel to be targeting civilian outposts for destruction - Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation which uses guerrilla tactics to fight; that means it uses the local population as #1 Weapons stations, #2 "Military" bases, #3 Canon fodder - If anyone thinks Hezbollah didn't first stuff that building in Qana with weapons (knowing Israel would find that weapons store) and then stuffed it with innocent civilians just so Israel would bomb that building and make the world see "Israel for the monster it is", then you are sorely mistaken, because that is exactly what they did.
Hezbollah has and is using and abusing the Lebanese, I've said this before and I'll say it again, Hezbollah and Nassrallah couldn't give a naked, shit infested rat's ass, over the Lebanese, who they would sacrifice in order to promote their own hate and war mongering aggression filled agendas.
Moreover, Fouad Sanyora, Lebanon's Prime Minister, thanked... *thanked* Hezbollah for standing up to Israel. That man is corrupt, Hezbollah is not Lebanon's army, it is, as I've stated, an organisation interested on furthering Syrian and Iranian interests! He has let his people down in a way I cannot imagine them ever recovering from.
Israel does what it can to warn civilians about coming attacks, Israel hides nothing of what it does; Hezbollah claimed they had no rocket launching out posts in Qana, we proved they did and attacked, we warned the civilians (and that includes Hezbollah, because the message is heard by everyone) and Hezbollah used those innocents to create anti-Israeli propaganda. They used human lives in the most callous, disgusting way possible.
Israel does not want to fight in villages, but Hezbollah uses those villages as outposts and villages that harbour criminals know what to expect, because we tell them to leave!
Hezbollah fires missiles every, goddamn, day! On regular, innocent, Israeli, civilians, it is not the Lebanese army doing this and we are not fighting the Lebanese army, but the world refuses to see Hezbollah for what they really are and the Lebanese are the ones suffering from a corrupt leader, a terrorist organization using, abusing and basically murdering them and an army (IDF) that has no choice but to bomb them because of the reasons above.
Hezbollah has made villages into battle fields and dead children into propaganda, the IDF has done everything in it's power to target only Hezbollah outposts and rocket launchers.
Hezbollah is a terrorist organization with an illegal militia wing using Lebanon as a base of operations. The IDF is the army of a sovereign country.
Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers (and has great influence over the kidnappers of a third), the IDF reacted to a Casus Belli!
Hezbollah are the ones who began fighting and in that instant they became the aggressors, Israel will do what it can to end this with the least amount of death on either side, because that is how we try to do things. Hezbollah couldn't care less about how many innocent people die, the more Lebanese civilians die, the better anti-Israel propaganda Hezbollah has and so they are willing to use an many people as possible in order to get that end, because the means are really not an issue for them.
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no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 08:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 08:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 08:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 08:46 pm (UTC)I have that software as well, seems we're both doing what we can... plus I'm in miluim.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 08:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 08:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 09:03 pm (UTC)I don't doubt it at all -- the New York Times a few days ago had quotes from Lebanese saying that Hezb'Allah was shooting at civilians who tried to flee Hezb'Allah-controlled areas -- but do you have any proof? Quotes from survivors, anything like that?
no subject
Date: 2006-07-30 09:08 pm (UTC)*sigh*
no subject
Date: 2006-07-31 06:01 am (UTC)Also, have you seen newsflashes?apparently the investigation shows that there is 6-7 hour gap between the building being hit and the collapse.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-31 07:19 pm (UTC)Yeah, I've heard something about that.
no subject
Date: 2006-07-31 11:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-01 01:25 am (UTC)This I find this statement amusing as the UN building in Beirut was stormed by a mob this morning because the UN is viewed there as being very Pro-Israel and they blame it for standing by and letting all this happen.
Short answer: America has been blocking the UN from doing anything but the UN would most likely side with the Lebanese because they tend to side with whoever has suffered the most civilian casualties.
That and the Israeli army hit a UN observation post killing 4 UN soldiers despite the fact that an Irish officer with the UN peacekeeping force called Israeli military liaison officers six times to point out that Israeli shellfire and aircraft munitions were landing dangerously close to more than one U.N. installation, including the one that suffered a direct hit Tuesday night.
This as you can imagine has not earned Israel much respect from the UN.
(Irish news covered this one quite a lot since there were irish people involved)
no subject
Date: 2006-08-01 10:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-01 10:52 pm (UTC)"report on any and all violations or activities that threaten the cease-fire and international peace and security here along the Lebanese/Israeli border, and Israeli Occupied Lebanon"
They were observers.
"the nature of my job here is to be impartial and to report violations from both sides without bias. As an Unarmed Military Observer, this is my raison d'etre."
They were not hit by artillery. Artillery shells *were almost* hitting them and the observer in question said that this did not appear to be intentional but rather accidental.
"On July 25, that base came under fire from Israeli artillery and was struck by a precision-guided aerial bomb."
What they were hit by was precision-guided aerial bomb which is just that. Precision-guided. Meaning it hits exactly where it is programmed to hit to within inches. I'm familiar with the sort of chips that are used in such weapons to ensure they hit where they're supposed to. Some advanced ones even contain cut-outs that make sure they cannot explode if they are more than a certain distance from their programmed target position.
I hate to say this but some soldier in the IDF aimed at them.
Kofi Annan is pissed because it has happened elsewhere that one side in a conflict has started shooting at UN observers to scare them off so that they can do what they like without anyone watching.
If you want to know what they're afraid might happen google the words "ten Belgian soldiers". Kofi Annan was partly responsible for pulling out UN troops after that incident and I doubt he wants that much blood on his hands ever again. So he's going to be paranoid as hell.
It's a horrible idea but I imagine it's better to be paranoid and have nothing happen than be complacent and be blamed for doing nothing.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 07:28 am (UTC)There are many kinds of "precision guided bombs" probably- since we both don't know the specific kind and it's method of guidance I won't try to.Just an observation: a bomb moves in 3d space, so 10cm difference in elevation can be the difference between passing over an obstructin(mound, building, whatever) and hitting same obstruction, which may cause it to hit 2-3m from target easily.
I'm pretty sure mr. Annan has a strong anti-Israeli bias, as evidenced by his behaviour in the 2000 video debacle.
Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-01 01:07 am (UTC)The easy answer would be to call the BBC anti israeli but a quick google shows almost equal numbers of people calling the bbc both anti-israli and pro-israeli. The BBC seems to take pride in maintaining such a balance of criticisms.
I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember but almost the exact same thing happened 10 years ago. In the same town.
I don't know if your tv screens are showing this but some of the towns on the lebanese side of the border are just rubble. I just watched a clip of a bbc news reporter walking around trying to find a whole building. He didn't.
The reporters claim people are told to flee but are too afraid to travel because moving vehicals tend to get hit on suspicion of being arms convoys. Most of the main bridges have been taken out by the Israeli military to slow enemy troop movements. Civilians simply cannot get away so it matters little that they are told to leave. They can't.
2: I'm Irish -I don't know how much this example will mean to you and I don't know how much you know about irish history,northern ireland and the IRA but there were a number of noteable masacres over the years. "http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/bsunday/circum.htm" to find out about one that was called "bloody sunday" but the thing is I know some english people who refuse to believe that it could have really happened. They believe that it was all a setup of some kind by the IRA because good british boys wouldn't do that kind of thing "not our boys" "We're the good guys".
Sometimes the reason the world media is showing lots of pictures of your countries soldiers doing fucked up shit isn't because the world hates you but rather because your soldiers really are doing some fucked up shit. but of course "not our boys, they're good boys"
Nobody likes the idea that perhaps their own side is doing bad things as well.
3: I still don't understand what the Israeli government think this will achieve? Groups like Hezbollah can only gain from this.
It doesn't matter if the Israeli army kills 99.9% of Hezbollah men.Or even every last one. For every event like Qana thousand flock to join them. they get stronger the longer this war goes on. 5 years time everything will be the same only with a stronger Hezbollah. They don't get built in some terrorist factory, they're recruited from the civilian population and that population is starting to really prefer Hezbollah and are willing to ignore how evil Hezbollah is. Much like the thousands of people who flocked to join the IRA after bloody sunday in ireland. If the president of Lebannon had not claimed to support Hezbollah after Qana then there would now be mobs tearing all the government buildings apart in Beirut.
4: My view of Hezbollah is very similar to my view of the IRA - that they're both a pack vicious murdering bastards that should be wiped out. But if the British army had responded to some of the IRA attacks against it over the years by flattening half the towns along the border with Northern Ireland then I doubt my view of the IRA would be the same and my best guess is that right now the north of ireland would be a warzone.
As of today- Current Deaths:
Israel: 51 (of which 18 were civilians)
UN: 4
Canada: 8
Lebanon: 750 (Exact numbers of which civilian unknown but it's a large proportion according to the UN)
I wonder if I'm going to get accused of supporting Hezbollah now(I don't in any way) or of being anti israeli (I don't believe I am).
Possibly anti-israeli army. I'd be anti Irish army if I heard of the irish army doing some of the things that have been on the news about the israeli army. Not a very patriotic point of view but "my country right or wrong" creeps me out.
For the record I am anti violence in pretty much all it's forms.
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-01 06:38 pm (UTC)I won't touch on everything you said, but the fact it that Hezbullah uses the Lebanese civillians as human sheilds and by being a guerrila organisation they by default rely on the local population from A to Z. This the population knows, this Israel knows and this Hezbullah knows.
I very, very aware at how cruel "my boys" can be, I know very well that the IDF is capable and has done much damage, caused many deaths and has is much, much stronger than Hezbullah and the Lebanese army.
However, the IDF does not target civillians on purpace, it targets Hezbullah outposts (which are unfortunately located in villages like Qana), we give warning to the people there (and so also the Hezbullah are warned) and we try very hard not to harm the innocent.
I can't say the same about Hezbullah who use illegal arms to fire onto the civillian population in Northern Israel, who use the Lebanese as human sheilds, who take over their houses in order to hide weapons.
And anyway, why is one house in Qana such an international tragedy while all those other people who died in previous, more sporadic bombings, are forgotten as collataral? Why is Israel held in such a double dtandard that it should just accept the fact that a terrorist organisztion kidnap soldiers and fire missiles on Israel, what it's okay Southern Lebanon is basically ruled by a foreighn body since the Lebanese governmant has no control over that region?
Is Israel the victim? No! absoloutly not, but we are entitled to defend our borders, was our action excessive? Maybe. Was it justified? Very.
Sorry for the bad spelling...
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-02 12:08 am (UTC)People hate Hezbollah already, if they hit civilians with shells well we already see them as clumsy idiots with guns and missiles.
Israel are supposed to be the good guys. If they miss when they're supposed to have all those hi-tech american weapons it looks really bad. Israel isn't allowed to be clumsy.
Example to try to explain peoples attitude towards this:
If 2 men get in a fight.
One a 5th level black belt and the other an untrained slob.
The black belt will be expected to be careful and controlled.
It doesn't matter who started it. If he kills the other man by beating him to a bloody pulp and just keeps going he will be called a murderer because he should have been able to stop the other man from hurting him badly without using excessive force.
One side : Trained and well armed army supplied with top-end weapons by the USA.
Other side : A mob of bastards supplied with shitty weapons by some of the neighboring governments.
One side: Hezbollah fire off a fairly poor missle,(how many hundred missiles have been fired so far with only 51 dead in israel and most of those from ground fighting? how shit are those missiles?)
Other side: Ten minutes later the Israeli army fires back with 10 times the amount of explosives killing anything within 20 meters of the launch site. Missing the launchers totally. Because they have been driven somewhere else by then.
one side: Hezbollah captures 2 Israeli soldiers and fires off unguided missiles.
other side: Israeli army flattens a number of towns.
Excessive doesn't really cover this one.
http://www.moiz.ca/coffin.htm
And would you be able to tell me: if you were to ask a Hezbollah supporter why the 2 soldiers were kidnapped would the answer be along the lines of "Well that was in revenge for yada yada yada against Hezbollah/lebanon" and if I were to ask about why yada yada yada had happened I'd be told "well that was in retaliation for yada yada yada yada" and so on until we get to some event to stupidly minor that you can only cry for it's pointlessness.
And as I said before.
This is not helping defend Israel.
How can I explain this.
Thousands of people who a few weeks ago just wanted to get on with their lives have been given reason to hate Israel because friends and relatives have been killed totally accidentally by the Israeli army which you have to admit is a damn good reason to hate someone.
There will be thousands of people who are no longer interested in tending their farm and next years harvest and just want to hurt Israel in some way in revenge for their brother/sister/father/mother/son/daughter who was a very unfortunate civilian casualty.
Now someone comes along and says "Come join us and you'll get a chance to hurt Israel"
Think about where this leads.
Exponential growth of numbers in your enemies ranks.
The IRA in ireland is gradually fading away but only because it's been a long time since the british army has fucked up and shot at or bombed any civilians or even IRA members.
The only way to stop this is the slow way.
By years of quiet, patient and calm responses.
1:Reply to a missile launched from a town by firing 10 back and you make enemies of everyone in the town.
2:Reply to a missile launched from a town by not sending the aid truck you've been sending every few weeks and the people there get pissed at the ones who launched the missile and become their enemies and won't let them into the town next time.
Yes 2 is expensive and doesn't give you that thrill of vengeance but it works which is a definite advantage over 1.
"why is one house in Qana such an international tragedy"
Why was My Lai such a tragedy?
Because there are pictures of a large number of dead children.
The IDF is started off being very much morally in the right but has handled this so incompetently that it has fallen well into the moral area that many would call the wrong.
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-02 01:35 am (UTC)So far though it's not really holding up.
A number of news sites are reporting that the building had been hit 8 hours after the actual attack but as far as I can see it is only sites that have a very strong IDF bias.
Sites I would personally call fairly neutral (CNN, reuters, BBC) aren't realy touching this one.
(my definition of neutral is that if I can find a reasonable number of people calling that news station both pro and anti then they're probably fairly neutral. Ynetnews and Al-Jazeera I would categories as extreme pro and anti biased stations)
But there are a few points I've come across that when put together smell rotten to me.
1: Almost everyone- Seems to agree that the building was hit a little before 1AM. A few extreme sites claim the building was not hit at all but casing fragments reportedly found push me to dismiss this possibility.
2: BBC- Residents claim the building collapsed shortly after the airstrike.(about 10 minutes)
3: Sami Yazbuk, the head of the Red Cross- claimed that the first call about the bombing was received at 7 AM.
4: "Israeli Air Force Headquarters commander Brigadier-General Amir Eshel and head of the Israeli Operations Directorate, Aluf Gadi Eizenkot told reporters that an initial investigation found the building in Qana collapsed about eight hours after being hit. Israeli officials also raised the possibility that Hezbollah explosives stored in the building were behind the collapse."
There seem to be no claims that it was 6 hours as far as google can find.
Anyone seeing any problems with the times here?
I'm taking the red cross to be a fairly reliable source .
Either the investigators can't do math or the collapse was reported 2 hours before it actually happened.
A 5 or 6 hour delay in reporting the hit would not be surprising with the damage to communication infrastructure and we might assume that someone had to run to the next town to find a working phone etc.
On the other hand a report 2 hours before the collapse would be quite odd indeed.
My respect for the quality of the IDF investigation is severely dented.
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-02 01:39 am (UTC)Change to "building had collapsed 8 hours after the actual attack"
silly mistake
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-02 07:40 am (UTC)Other side : A mob of bastards supplied with shitty weapons by some of the neighboring governments.
Hizzbullah are, unfortunately, very far from being a mob brandishing shitty weapons.Their rockets may be primitive but they are quite disciplined, and have good weapons and installations against ground forces(numerous strongpoints and bunkers, Sager AT missiles, AK47s, etc).
The only way to stop this is the slow way.
By years of quiet, patient and calm responses.
1:Reply to a missile launched from a town by firing 10 back and you make enemies of everyone in the town.
2:Reply to a missile launched from a town by not sending the aid truck you've been sending every few weeks and the people there get pissed at the ones who launched the missile and become their enemies and won't let them into the town next time.
That we can definitely agree on.The main question is this:will the SL people be willing to accept aid from Israel?I'm not so sure.
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-03 12:12 pm (UTC)Right now I'm not so sure either. If the fighting goes on much longer there won't be anything that can be done to relieve the bitterness for generations. Both sides will have, and lets face it, already have too many reasons to seek vengence.
Re: Playing devils advocate
Date: 2006-08-04 12:01 pm (UTC)Thing is they're portrayed as an unwashed, untrained mob in the media and the Israeli army/government would prefere them to be portrayed as such because showing them as highly competent might imply they they are capable of winning and very few governments want to hint that their enemies might win which does make sense, it keeps moral up.
This image in the media also acts as their passport to be clumsy.