"It's all fun and games...

[eumelia]

... Until somebody pees in the sandbox"

An apt metaphor.

The whole situation regarding SurveyFail (see my previous post and more links on the matter) has been a matter of frustration to Fen.
As is evident by the amount of links collected, it is just an issue that touches us where it hurts the most.

To have our passions, desires and identities reduced in such a callous manner just will not fly.

Mainly due to a lack of time and differences in time-zones I did not participate actively in the actual discourse with ogi_ogas; not on his journal, which reading it left me feeling quite unclean due to having my eyes skim over the kind of entitlement I've grown to expect from men who think they deserve to see me kiss other women and not on threads on other journals which left me apoplectic and wanting to gouge my eyes out with my knitting needles.
An example at shaggirl's journal:

why are you focusing on slash in your survey and not just relationships in general for fanfic without regard to who the pairings are?

Thank you for your questions!

Well, slash is kind of the female equivalent of the straight male interest in transsexuals. That is, the opposite of what culture would predict. So it probably reflects a more direct subcortical effect. Also, there's already data out there about romance novels we can use, which probably overlaps with relationships in fan fic, but we do have a few questions that aren't specific to slash. Maybe we'll have more in the next round.

Emphasis mine.

That, friends, was the moment I could not for the life of me find the words to comment coherently, because the only thing I could hear was the blood rushing to my head and trying to find ways to spill out of the cavities in my face!
Yes, my head was pounding and I actually felt nauseous.
Read the thread... it's special.

One of the things I learnt over my years of living where I do, being who I am and being visible in practically ever facet of my identity to a certain extent is that you cannot get rid of your biases.
Everything is coloured by your preconceived notion of what is Right, what is Wrong, what is Good and what is Bad.
It takes a lot for your view to shift in any real way.
One of the things that does help regarding the issue of bias, is the acknowledgement that the things you seek in other people (be it knowledge, relationships or simple curiosity about how others think), are the things that exist within you as well.
There is no research, certainly not when it comes to the brain (read this succinct overview of what we know when it comes to Psychology) or any kind of human mechanism, that does not include self research.

Thus, when a couple of dudes come to fandom with the notion that they will show the world at large (for a good sum of money) how it is that Other People Get Off on Internet Porn, they are assuming that there is behaviour that is Normal and behaviour that is Different and they do not even bother to unpack what this Normal stuff is and why other stuff is Different from it.

I suppose it's redundant to mention that while the Fandom Backlash did its best to set this SurveyFail on fire, these researchers showed their true colours by locking up the journal upon which the majority of backlash occurred, they contacted one of the people that helped promote the survey and officially showed their true colours.
It is primarily yellow, btw.

[..]He [Ogi] defends is comparison of women liking slash to straight men liking transsexuals because "some deep sense of pleasure or satisfaction ultimately rooted in subcortical circuits" compels us to seek out slash/transsexuals despite fearing exposure to society at large. He asks for my feedback on this theory. He suggests they were working on the point-by-point post I suggested above, requesting my suggestions, and explains to me again why their methods are not faulty, that they actually planned to change the phrasing of questions as they went along. He is quite certain that his values align with those of the bulk of fandom, and crows a bit about still having contacts in slash fandom who are apparently "blissfully unaware" of SurveyFail. He has nothing but goodwill for fandom, but dismisses the criticisms of "anonymous, purported academics". And on and on. On second read-through I'm kind of gobsmacked.

Emphasis mine

If you read the whole post, you will find that it was far more malicious that first thought, though possibly still clueless regarding where the fail actually lies.

I feel this issue will continue to create waves in fandom, as it is not just these few individuals who created a shit-storm, because the assumption of Otherness when it comes to women's desires, queer desires, the reality of gender expression and identity and the intersection it has with race, class and ability is not something to be dismissed.
It is our lives.
What went on here.
That was just a symptom.

I'm curious to see and participate in the discussion that comes out of the ashes of this very hot bushfire.

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understood all of that because my brain is still half asleep. But where do straight men who like slash fit into this theory?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Obviously, you're actually gay and only think you're straight... doi!

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Figures.

Wait, so who was saying that straight men have an interest in trans-sexuals then?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

He's having trouble owning up to the fact that he likes Transsexuals.

Projection, much?

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

I don't know about you, but I don't think I've ever known a fully straight man who was attracted to trans-sexuals. Every guy I've ever known who liked transexuals was just a leeeeeetle bit in the closet.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Are you talking about perceiving Transsexuals as a fetish (like mainstream Lesbian Porn), or people dating Trans people?

Two different categories, not mutually exclusive... also, we're now entering territory I'm not so comfortable talking about in this manner as it totally objectifies Trans people, and just... no, not a good zone to enter.

Let's mind our language and what we're saying on this subject, okay?

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

No, not objectifying trans people at all. Just struggling to understand why/where the statement might come from that only straight men are interested in transexuals is all.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure finding any kind of Porn titillating has much to do with who you'd want to date or actually have sex with.
I'm very much a fan of m/m slash, but I'm not that keen on actually dating two men who into each other (I'd probably just be an interruption in this hypothetical RL situation).

Acknowledging that you're titillated and aroused by people or objects that you wouldn't necessarily go after in reality isn't bad... assuming that everyone's sexuality can be reduced to what they like in their porn and trying to prove something via cognitive psychology is a tad far fetched.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

I think there might be a fundemental generalised male/female difference there, because the sorts of girls who are most popular in pornography for men, are the sorts of girls that men can most imagine themselves dating.

This is why pictures of hollywood celebrities disappeared from the covers of mens magazines in the UK and were replaced by homegrown topless models - because men didn't like looking at pictures of women they felt were totally removed from them, and instead they wanted to look at women they felt they might bump into down at the pub and have a drink with and may actually have a chance of pulling.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

The girls shown in mainstream porn may appear home grown, but they're still an impossible image the majority of women just cannot mesh with.
Most magazine covers show an impossible standard of beauty, just like most mainstream porn shows an impossible standard of sex.
It creates a fantasm that men fall for and women can't actually be.

I'm not sure who these men think they're going to find on the pull as you say.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Oh, I quite agree. But the point is it is marketed as an attainable fantasy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Just a reminder: A transsexual person ("transsexual" is an adjective, please) can be male or female, can be straight or gay or bi, can be post-op or pre-op.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course, I know. In the context of the quote it seemed to be talking about the male interest in m2f transexuals though. I'm not aware of there being much male interest in f2m transexuals? I might be wrong though. Mind you that said, I know a couple guys whose wifes transitioned.

Wasn't aware the word was problematic as a noun?

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Wasn't aware the word was problematic as a noun?

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

So, forgive a potentially stupid question please. When a transexual person identifies themself as 'I am a transexual person and proud to be', in the same way somebody might say 'I am gay', it is strictly as an adjective and not a noun?

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Do you say "I am a gay"?

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

No. I don't think so anyway.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Well, there you go then.

(Also, equating something to do with trans people to something to do with gay people doesn't always work. There are some parallels as with any oppression, but you can't say, e.g., "well, if she calls herself an 'African American' then I can call you a transgender!")

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Thank you for clearing it up. It was something... probably something I'd never really even thought about before.

[tinyrevolution.livejournal.com]

lolwat

[sabotabby]

I see your reasoned commentary, and respond with NSFW tentacle porn.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Gorgeous.
Fantastic.

I approve of your response!

OT

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Have you seen this (http://blog.newsarama.com/2009/09/01/x-men-the-new-israelis/).

It really, really upset me! Dude... why?!

Totally off topic

[newsbean.livejournal.com]

I like your icon.

Re: Totally off topic

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

hehe, your is very nice indeed as well!

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

So he realizes that the reason people use pseudonyms about slash is that they fear exposure, but he also discounts what they say because they are anonymous, even when what they have told him makes more sense than his preconceived ideas. Things like, "Didja know that most of the readers on FF.net are minors?" and "Some fanfiction isn't about sex at all, have you ever actually read any?" and "Have you read any of the secondary literature about fan fiction?" Not to mention the ever-popular, "We actually do know what an IRB is and have called your supposed university on you." (Preconceived idea #1: I can present myself as a researcher without actually doing any of the prep work a serious researcher would do, and no one will ever know.")

He probably also thinks that the tentacle porn means we aren't serious.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

He probably also thinks that the tentacle porn means we aren't serious.

I'm pretty sure he thinks the fact that the fiction isn't original and that it is written primarily by women makes it frivolous and not really serious writing.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

No, no, I mean that we aren't serious about trying to stop him from publishing the book. I don't think fan fiction is serious writing, in some sense--which is why I, like a lot of other people who write in other contexts, find it so great!--though it is a serious enterprise on many levels. There's a lot of good cultural and even psychological analysis to be done on what people are doing when they write fan fiction.

It also occurs to me that you could make the same argument that he wants to make about the subcortical basis of internet porn about just about anything fun. Eating a lot of candy. Jumping off the living room couch. There's really zero justification for asking people questions about whether they take drugs while reading slash fiction when there are so many activities that could fall into this category, where you take a slight risk in order to experience pleasure.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Ah, I misunderstood.
I think the fact that fandom exposed the fact that this project has zero academic backing and that many Fen have contacts in the publishing world can get the ball rolling.

The technology we currently have to study that sort of thing doesn't give us much information on why the brain reacts like it does to pleasure, but more on how it does so. Important stuff, but when you're trying to create results that go along with your assumptions about what human desire is... that's problematic.

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

And why shouldn't a person study what his training actually equips him to do? Which in his case is mathematical models of data mining.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

See neededalj, who is a cognitive neuro's, take on that.

http://neededalj.livejournal.com/1241.html

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

Yes, I read that! I'm also deeply suspicious of someone who was involved in US government data mining, a fairly frightening approach to intelligence.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Yes, this. His education was paid for by the U.S. homeland security department so that he could develop ways to spy on Internet users.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link!

[stateofwonder.livejournal.com]

I wish you could write my friend who wrote his thesis on slash fiction. I think you would really get along.

WTF is with their comments about trans people as freakish objects that "straight" men desire secretly because their non-gender normative bodies are seemingly too outlandish to desire publicly???

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I don't mind making new friends :D

It is... so very bad, in so many ways. I mentioned, apoplexy and the gouging of eyes with kintting needles yes?
It's more on the fact that by straight men desirable bodies that they perceive to be male, despite gender being female... it's, ya know, not fucking normal and must have something to do with the glands in the brain and not just, ya know, panicking about the fact that my desires aren't exactly what "straight" desires should be.

In the end, it's a bit sad... or it would be if it weren't so infuriating!

[stateofwonder.livejournal.com]

Ahh, I meant to say meet. He's not on LJ anymore, sadly :(

It is pretty pathetic, ain't it.

[elf]

This post has been included in a linkspam roundup.