The Sacred Band of Torchwood

[eumelia]

As I was visiting my fic communities yesterday, someone in the jackxianto community shared a quote that made 'em think of Jack and Ianto.

The quote is this:
"I Want Him To Come Up Behind Me And Wrap His Arms Around My Waist To Catch Me Off Guard And Whisper" I Love You".

I couldn't help it.
I gagged.
I back buttoned and had to read a fic in which the Jack and Ianto behaved like... well, like I think they behave on the show - I really recommend Pizza Mouth by cyus as a slice (haha) of "real life" boys hanging out together, but are also sexual with each other. It's all so very dirty.

The fic made me feel better.

That quote is so anathema to the way I perceive Jack and Ianto's relationship that I cannot imagine how anyone would consider this appropriate for their dynamic.

I think the pictures of Jack and Ianto that floated around the Interwebs in the year following the end of the second season and promoting Children of Earth gave fans the wrong idea regarding the relationship.

Is there love there? No doubt. After CoE you'd have to be utterly clueless in order to ignore the depth of feeling between the two men. The gravity between then is possibly the best ever portrayed between two men on screen - yes, more than Queer as Folk, more than Brokeback Mountain and more than the latent homoeroticism found in various war movies in which one kills people instead of making love to your fox-hole buddy.

Which brings me to my point.

Jack and Ianto, first and foremost, are warriors. They meet on the battle field ("Fragments"), their first kiss on screen is Jack's odd version of CPR in the midst of a tiny little war - over love, of all things ("Cyberwoman"), Ianto propositions Jack over the body of a dead colleague/rogue warrior ("They Keep Killing Suzie").
Practically all their overt "romantic" - such as they are - moments are in the middle of questionably appropriate times - Jack asking Ianto out on a date while they're searching for a bomb, the kiss (that Ianto initiates) between them while Tommy is thawed in order to keep him operable for some future/past event, the now infamous Green House scene¹ and more of course.

All that's to say, Jack and Ianto's relationship is not one of hearts and flowers. It is also not a relationship between equals.

Beyond the immortality thing, there is also the whole shagging the boss thing. Not to mention Ianto's keen awareness of his own working-class background and kinda-sorta metrosexual identity in the outside world.
I think that's what makes it all the more enjoyable for Ianto and Jack, they can screw with the built-in hierarchies of their positions as much as they like.
Which probably makes their avant-garde dabbling very very interesting indeed.
It also makes "From out of the Rain" (worst monster-of-the-week ever!) an episode to watch a little more closely as there is a lot of interplay regarding their background and their relationship.

They are warriors, and they are lovers.

It makes sense to recall the Sacred Band of Thebes, who were in short a troop of Elite Greek Warriors composed of couples who were made up of a Lover and Beloved as befitted the Platonic ideal (which unlike today, meant there was actually sex going on). In which the Lover was the older more experienced soldier and warrior, and the Beloved was the younger companion.

Jack and Ianto's relationship always reflected that kind of devotion and it was certainly brought to the foreground in Children of Earth, in which Jack and Ianto fight along side each other, rescue each other from death, do in fact die *deep breath* and are put next to each other in a row, covered in red shrouds - much like the colour of the Greek warriors garments if I recall correctly.

In addition to that, there's the scar on Ianto's cheek. I've spoken before on the fact that it is shaped like a Lambda, physically marking him as Queer. I didn't know at the time, but I was later told that the Lambda was a symbol emblazoned on the shields of Spartan warriors, which further strengthens my point of Ianto as a Queer Warrior.

My point is, despite the sweet slow dance at Gwen and Rhys' wedding, the reason Ianto and Jack are awkward about the whole "couple" thing is because, well, they're not really a couple in the modern romantic sense that we think of.

They've gone on one date canonically, Ianto has mentioned more than once that the sex between them is anything but "normal", possibly it is the most kinky sex to have been mentioned² on television.

They do not do shmaltz. They may do fluff, like the monologue Ianto spiels at Jack's hospital bed in "The Dead Line" radio play, which more than anything showed us that the poor boy has such low self esteem that he thinks Jack is dreaming of other people while sleeping beside Ianto, and of course Jack's response in the same play - "You never will be just a blip in time, Ianto Jones. Not for me".
Cue "Awwwww" sounds.
But really, what that means is that they know that Ianto will die, very soon in fact!

These two men, for neither of them are women (I cannot tell you how much the feminisation of either of them, when it is not a deliberate kink, annoys me!), are realistic and pragmatic to various degrees. These two do not walk around holding hands in the street, they do not wrap their arms around each other for any reason other than sex - recall that in "Fragments" when Ianto has his shoulder dislocated Jack pats him on the back and in Day 1 of CoE that extremely awkward hug, I felt that Ianto was trying out something and that this was obviously a rare occurrence.

They are not sweet, nor is their relationship pretty.
They are two warriors finding moments of intimacy in the midst of battles for their lives, in a hostile world.
And that's all they have.

Notes
(1) I suspect that the writers put that scene in mainly to have Gwen walk in on them and thus finally get the whole Gwack undertone out of the way. To explicitly say; look she's unavailable, he's unavailable, whatever it is that they have is never going to be consummated on that level.
Back to text.
(2) I think if the BBC was ever to get so explicit as say HBO or Showtime or Channel 4 Torchwood would have had to become a much longer show simply to show all the stuff that Jack and Ianto come up with - like this magnificent fic, The Secretary by angstslashhope.
Back to text

Should I x-post this anywhere? I'm still a bit fandom shy at times.

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Was Ianto a warrior?

... I thought he was the teaboy.

;)

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Ninja!Tea-Boy!

[neifile7.livejournal.com]

Well put. I share your distaste for the feminization and heteronormalizing of the relationship, and I think you're dead right to put the emphasis on their soldierly identities (which are in turn part of their masculine identities). Let us not forget how deeply that is engrained in Jack -- canonically, a huge part of his history -- and how it also gives a model for attachment and devotion between unequal ranks that I think would speak to them both. And would also give them much to play with, in erotic terms.

Interesting that you should mention the hug in Day 1 of CoE; I recall reading something about Euros Lyn telling them to make it "brotherly, like soldiers not lovers." Which is in fact how I read it, although I think the awkwardness vis-à-vis their "couplehood" also comes through.

"Pizza Mouth" is indeed a great corrective to much fic, and I think a really splendid treatment of how intimacy between these two might look and feel.

ETA: x-posting is a great idea, as long as you're careful about where to put it; you'll probably get the most intelligent responses from places like ninja_teaboy.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I don't know about that hug. It made me very uncomfortable, possibly because they both looked awkward at the time.

I like what you say about the soldier model being one of attachment and devotion for unequal ranks, which is exactly what they are, it also makes a whole lot of sense for Jack to formulate that kind of relationship with Ianto as he's the one member of the team towards which he is decidedly not paternal (if a bit incestuous).

I'm weary about x-posting this at a place like jackxianto, it's very hit and miss at times.

Anywhere else other than ninja_teaboy? Maybe torch_wood? Or would that not fit?

Thanks you!

[neifile7.livejournal.com]

Post at torch_wood if you're brave; it will have the benefit of going to the TW3 newsletter, but you can also put your journal directly on that watch list if you prefer. Just be aware that it's a bastion of the kind of the fic you're criticizing, and not necessarily the ideal place for meta discussion. Hit and miss to a higher power, since there's a huge readership -- which can cut both ways.

ETA: saw that you posted at n_t; see what transpires!

[sabotabby]

I think your analysis is pretty spot-on. It's actually a pretty fucked-up and awkward relationship in a lot of ways, which is why I like watching it. Straight-up romance (pun intended) is boring as hell.

Most of the fic I seem to run across feminizes poor Ianto so much that he has Jack's assbabies. (Which is funny given canonically Jack can get pregnant.) And Jack pledging monogamy, which...no.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I was so proud of myself that I wrote an entire post about Jack and Ianto without the words "fucked up" in it.
But they so are!

Most of the mpreg stories I decided I was able to read were usually Jack being all hemaphroditely and stuff, there is a good story with Ianto being the pregnant one... I just to remember where I read it!
The feminisation is irritating. I have some good fic in my memories and over at torchwood_house are the best recs!

[svollga.livejournal.com]

Could this story be 'Get Loved, Make More, Try to Stay Alive'?
http://dira.ficlaundering.com/dwt/getloved.html

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Brilliant!

Thank you.

[svollga.livejournal.com]

You're welcome :)
It was the first MPreg fic I've read in this fandom, and it helped me to overcome my squick for MPreg and kidfics. I absolutely love it.

[svollga.livejournal.com]

I absolutely love your analytic posts on Torchwood.
Since Day Four I can't stop repeating: 'They are soldiers. Not an office couple. Not a soldier-and-civilian couple. They are BOTH soldiers. Yes, that's why Ianto goes to 456 with Jack, and Jack doesn't stop him. They are AT WAR!"
After CoE, I stopped reading any fandom communities almost entirely because I can't stand this schmoopiness and outrage at the writers who 'spoiled our cute lovey-dovey couple'.

Jack have been a soldier his entire life. Ianto was a civilian, but became a soldier, and in Season 2 he most definitely is one. The Sacred Band of Thebes analogy is perfect for describing their relationship - I use it, too (though I couldn't remember how those troopes were called). They love each other, surely, but it's not the romantic love - it's brotherhood (the same they share with Gwen, and with Tosh and Owen before), respect, support, protectiveness, responsibility and many other things, all mixed in one and peppered with sexual attraction (based on adrenalin, powerplay and trust, I suppose - so I'm sure they are VERY kinky).

By the way, the whole Day Four situation reminds me of 'Parting of the Ways': Jack is mortal then, and he goes to fight and die, and the Doctor never stops him, never tries to send him away (as he did with Rose, a civilian). The whole Ninth/Jack dynamic is similar to Jack/Ianto. (And Jack in CoE is so much like the Ninth Doctor, in so many ways...)

The whole 'couple' discussion appeared because they (Ianto, mostly) had to explain their relationship to the world which doesn't have modern labels for this type of relationship, and which doesn't know there IS war. It's mostly part of explaining Torchwood to outsiders: 'I work in a secret organisation, I hunt aliens, I feed a pteranodon, I have weird sexual-hierarchical-emotional relationship with my boss'. When I see people outraged because 'Jack doesn't care about our cute little boy Ianto' or 'Ianto is clingy and wants something from our dashing Jack', I feel sick, really. More so, when I see people outrage by the fact that Jack never said The Words. Get rid of your sappy goggles! His 'Don't' said so much different things an overused 'I love you' never could!

I'm ranting now, I suppose :) Sorry. I've seen your post right after reading (involuntarily) a part of a huge scandal between anti-CoE Janto-shippers and pro-CoE Gwen-lovers, and am a bit nervous.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Where is this scandal? I always enjoy seeing mud slinging :)

And thank you for your thoughts, especially relating to Jack paralleling Doctor!Eccleston, that's very interesting to me, as I've always thought that Jack tries to emulate the Doctor, especially the one he travelled with, though I'm pretty sure that there is something between Jack and Doctor!Tennant.

[svollga.livejournal.com]

Sorry, it was in Russian, in bits and pieces through a lot of blogs, but I've got the echoes in my friendlist :)

I am absolutely sure that Jack tries to emulate the Ninth - tried it since he got trapped on Earth, and surely since he became a TW3 leader. I think that Jack considers the Ninth - his Doctor, the only one he knew personally before Utopia (it means, for ~150 years) - his role model of how to be bigger from the inside. The Ninth was his commander, his elder, respected friend, his savior, even kind-of-parental figure, probably. (Also, I have a feeling of Dom/sub dynamics there, but maybe it's just me.)
So, when Jack (who 'm sure is born to be second-in-command, not a commander himself) becomes a leader, he tries to be the Ninth Doctor. (He recreates TW3 in his honour!) Only he is too human, and he has nowhere to run.
Evethything that happens to him in CoE, and his reactions, remind me the Ninth, up to Stephen's death which is kind of a parallel to the Time War and destruction of Gallifrey. And in the end, Jack runs, as the Doctor did.

I'm sure there is something between Jack and the Tenth, too :) They are great together - maybe it's the actors' chemistry. Though in their dynamic, I feel more equality than between Jack and the Ninth.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Ooooh good insight!

I'm sure there is something between Jack and the Tenth, too :) They are great together - maybe it's the actors' chemistry. Though in their dynamic, I feel more equality than between Jack and the Ninth.
I think you're right about the Hierarchy that exists between the Ninth and Jack. Once Jack meets the Tenth his already over a century old and has been a leader and saved the world more than once, which definitely puts him on equal footing with the Tenth, which also made the interaction between the Tenth and Jack during "Utopia" - the You're wrong moment (I was really pissed at the Doctor for a long time after that) - which seemed to be a moment in which the Doctor was trying to re-establish the hierarchy they had before but was doing it wrong.

[svollga.livejournal.com]

Yup, that's it. With the Ninth, Jack was a (relatively) young man trying to prove he's worthy being saved; with the Tenth, he's another world saviour, with a lot of experience of his own.
I was pissed at the Doctor for 'wrong' comment, too! Still am. The idea that he was re-establishing the hierarchy works for me, thanks :)

[hope]

These two men, for neither of them are women (I cannot tell you how much the feminisation of either of them, when it is not a deliberate kink, annoys me!), are realistic and pragmatic to various degrees.


How does womanhood preclude 'realistic' relationships or 'pragmatic' characters? Why is 'femininity' being declared synonymous with the 'schmaltz' authors sometimes write into the 'ship?

I suppose this is somewhat of a tangent from the main point of your post - I'm not trying to challenge you for declaring your tastes when it comes to the tone or characterisation of Jack/Ianto fic.

But is the casual misogyny in the statement above (and indeed throughout the comments talking about "feminisation") really necessary?

I do believe it's possible to talk about enjoying that more soldierly/brotherhood aspect of the relationship without declaring that the opposite of it as some narrow, belittling concept of 'womanhood' or 'femininity', which is to be considered inferior and avoided.

And your statement above just leaves me boggling doubly so in this context - Children of Earth especially is full of women who demonstrate, in their characterisation and behaviour, the opposite of what you're deriding here as 'feminising' - they are pragmatic, soldierly, 'realistic', not schmaltzy, etc. i.e. they demonstrate that womanhood does not necessarily equal being ineffectual, or sentimental, or physically affectionate or 'schmaltzy'.

It seems a bit hypocritical that you're making a point that Jack and Ianto don't necessarily slot into a stereotypical concept of what a romantic relationship looks like; and at the same time casually perpetuating (negative) stereotypes about women and femininity.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

My point in the parentheses wasn't a criticism of femininity or women, certainly not the women of Torchwood, My issue is with the very prevalent phenomenon of Ianto (usually) and Jack (at times) being feminized in their relationship in order to make it appear more heteronormative.
THAT is what is actually misogynistic.

You're confusing my tangent with the main point. No where in my post do I equate gender with any specific stereotype. I'm saying that Jack and Ianto's presentation on the show doesn't mesh with the rom-com ideal that casually perpetuates stereotypes about women and men. Jack and Ianto manage to be tender and affectionate within the frame of their "Lovers in Arms" relationship and it doesn't and shouldn't be reduced (and reproduce) the common heteronormative romance drama that has very little to do with them.

[cupidsbow.livejournal.com]

I'm not a huge fan of schmaltz, either. But come on. Jack is the biggest drama queen in the universe -- just think of all that brooding on rooftops! The way he wears emotion so openly is one of the things I love best about him; he's hardly a stiff-upper-lip ideal. For that reason alone, I can see getting to a schmaltzy reading from canon, and even though it's not my reading, I think it's as valid as my take, or yours.

Also what so wrong with 'femininity'? All the most pragmatic people I've known in real life are women. The women in Torchwood are pretty kick-arse too. I know what you're trying to say here, but look at the language you've used. Surely misogyny is more offensive than schmaltz?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Being a drama-queen has very little to do with schmaltz. Being camp and being schmaltzy are light years apart.
I said in my OP that the affection, emotion and love between the two is apparent and clear.
The validity of my take is not the issue, my issue is with the heteronomalization of 1)a relationship that is not hetero, and 2)a relationship that doesn't actually fit with what we can easily think of modern romantic relationships.

Regarding the misreading of my tangential point regarding feminisation you can read my reply here (http://eumelia.livejournal.com/430040.html?thread=2572504#t2572504).

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

These two men, for neither of them are women (I cannot tell you how much the feminisation of either of them, when it is not a deliberate kink, annoys me!)

Me too. And that goes for other male slash pairings as well. I see what [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] is saying about the word "feminisation" being troublesome, but agree that some writers put Jack and Ianto into a stereotype of a rom-com or chick-lit or Harlequin romance or something fantasy of "things couples say to each other which makes me go 'awwww, isn't that sweet?'"

Apparently, given the popularity of romance novels, there is an audience for that, but let's not pretend that overly flowery interaction between two men (or even two people of differing genders, because I don't have maudlin conversations like that with my male partner without liquor being involved, and we've been married for aaaages) is realistic or in-character for THESE characters.

This is something I try not to publicly bitch about much, because I recognise that a lot of this sort of interaction in fic is written by women for women and some women LIKE that kind of thing because they consume media where people presumably emote a lot in romantic situations. But it makes me wonder if they actually know any men who do this. Even Jack, who perhaps has greater lashings of anima in his makeup than most male characters in media since he rejects labels and isn't really afraid to be "non-macho" at times, gets emotional over his box o' memories in private.

Caring about your partner does not = being teary and emo unless your character is usually teary and emo.

ETA: When I entered this fandom, I stumbled upon this sort of Jack/Ianto fic and it put me off the pairing for MONTHS.

I suspect that's part of the problem for people who dislike Jack/Gwen or other pairings which generate a certain amount of badfic - because they find the badly-characterised fic first.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I have issue with same-sex women's relationships being masculinised, in order for there to be a "man" and a "woman" in the pairing. If that wasn't clear.
It annoys me in opposite-sex relationships as well.
In general, I have a problem heterosexism and heteronormativity.

The dynamic I present offers a whole range of behaviours, because it's an underlying dynamic - I don't think it's feminine or masculine to, for example, cry - I think it's human. I don't being realistic or pragmatic is anything other than human in the situation Jack and Ianto are in.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Yes.

Well, Jack and Ianto both cry at different times. That's completely human.

Sharing their inner feelings a lot? Not... really.