Casual Homophobia

[eumelia]

Due to Torchwood and the discussion regarding Homophobia that spread over fandom on-line, I've mentioned a few times the term "casual homophobia", I got a mentioning of the phenomenon as well.

Seeing as I had a brush with it yesterday and it being in the forefront of my mind, I thought I'd share the anecdote with you my dear readers and hear what y'all had to say about it.

Yesterday I went to visit my friend N, who has been ill lately and her Boyfriend was there, taking care of her, making lunch, etc.

He hung out in the living room and we hung out in her bedroom.

She'd been telling me about this guy for a month now and I was looking forward to meeting him as she hasn't sounded this enthusiastic about a boy in a while.

Anyway as we sat in her room she we chatted and she said that he's one of the most open minded people she'd ever met. Like myself, queer or not, the majority of my friends are what can be commonly called "Outsiders".
So him being an Outsider and open-minded (things that are not mutually exclusive mind you) sounded like a good deal to me.

He made chicken soup for N and himself, fried some rice for me, sans chicken to cater to my vegetarian self, the small talk was flowing and very comfortable, he asked me what I do (student of Lit and, Gender and Women' Studies, which he asked about and seemed to grasp very quickly and didn't make any jokes about "Men's Studies" which was refreshing as well) he didn't bat an eyelash when I mentioned [Southern!Girl].
All very charming and domestic.
It was fun.

Eventually due to her being quite sickly (poor thing!) N fell asleep and I was getting ready to go, seeing as she had fallen asleep and her boy needed to study.
As I was gathering my stuff, her boy asked, casually, "Are you a Lesbian?"

You know how you automatically stiffen and you feel your tummy drop a bit when you perceive a threat? My body did that, but just as quickly I relaxed again, because I'd been hanging out with his nice guy for over an hour and replied, just as casually, "No, I'm Bi, I just seem Gay" and we had a chuckle.

Now I cannot give you a word for word record of the conversation that went down, because it was quite long and eventually went in circles.

It turns out this boy has never met a gay man that he got along with. They are all aggressive, provocative and if they wouldn't be shoving their identity in his face if they were so Proud of it.

Oy oy oy.
I say again, oy oy oy.

So much to unpack and break down, so little time.

The discussion as to why what he said was homophobic and why I am using such a "strong term" like homophobia went on for a good 40 minutes.
It was civil.
I kept my cool despite wanting to tear my (his) hair out.

N eventually woke up and came out of her bedroom and was happy to hear us talking and getting along. Her boy sarcastically said, "We were just discussing the weather".
Which made us all chuckle.
N said she's always happy when her friends get along, to which a tsk and she replied: "Well you get along with everyone".
And I do, much to my dismay at times.

I'm not afraid of confrontation as 40 minutes of "civil discussion" should indicate. But unlike with my family (and very-very close chosen-family-type-friends) who I believe should know better than to say certain things, I find myself infinitely fucking patient with strangers when it comes to difference in opinion that have political ramifications in real life.

The thing is, nothing he was saying was hateful. He wasn't saying that gay men were perverted, disgusting, that they need to be "fixed" or have violence committed upon them for being who they are.
What he was saying that the queer was putting a cramp on his default identity, which fully admitted to having when I explained to him what I meant by "default identity".

It's casual and no real harm is meant by it, but it's endemic and it hurts and makes seemingly safe spaces appear unsafe.

He's a very charming nice guy and he treats N well and they seem very happy together which makes me very happy for her.
I think I'll just be asking him if he's managed to rise above his straightness and find any gays with whom he's gotten along with.

I'd like to add that this is not an invitation for people to bash the people I've (anonymously) mentioned in this post. As usual any comment in welcome, anonymous ones are always automatically screened.

Comments

[rm.livejournal.com]

What does it say about EVERYTHING that my first thought when he asked if you were gay was "I bet he wants to find out if she's bi and suggest a threesome?"

Sigh.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I'd snort, but I'm too busy giggling.

[queenmab21.livejournal.com]

Well I know my boy to well, he was just thinking an innocent question. I don't think he would like the idea of someone else with us :) But i'm giggling too for sure.

[rm.livejournal.com]

Well, I should add, I was relived when the whole thing turned out to be subtler than that and more "this is an issue that can be worked on by intelligent people (him included)."

[queenmab21.livejournal.com]

I agree with that.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I too was relieved that the conversation was civil, if irritating :)

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

1. Homosexuals who wave their gayness around can be annoying.
2. Homosexuals who wave their gayness around are likely, by way of Nature, to be the first homosexuals one will encounter in their lifetime.
3. Simple minded folk will falsely generalize from here.

From which follows
4. To advance neutrality towards homosexuals it is counter-productive to artificially wave one's sexuality around.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

1. People who have mannerisms that annoy you can be annoying.
2. Everyone has a quirk that will be a "first" at some point.
3. "Can't we all just... get along"

From which follows:
4. I have boobies. Feminine clothing (and Bras) makes them pretty and very obvious. If I had a penis, I'd wear skinny jeans all the time!

:P

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

1. Vulgar mannerisms are vulgar.
2. Not necessarily. Also, the "quirk" in this case would not be orientation, but the waiving of one's orientation.
3. Not if we're being aggressive.
4. How do your boobies, in your opinion, relate to the fact that you are attracted to some women?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

1. Yes, yes they are. And cats go "hiss".
2. Straight people don't have PDA's now, do they?
3. If aggression means flicking a wrist or being irritated by heterosexist assumptions... then no.
4. I think we should emulate Bonobos more, rather than Chimps. Also I mention my boobies because they are, within the fashion that I often wear, automatically flaunted without there being any issue with it... much like heterosexuality is flaunted, but it's not regarded as such because it is "default".
But let's not get too serious.

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

Well, one of the things that make a civil society civil is the refraining of its members from hissing at each other.
PDA's?
"Irritated by..." As long as you don't list most people's being straight as a heteronormative assumption...
Waiving your boobs around would be counter-productive if you wanted to make orthodox Jews more waiving-boobs-positive and would appropriately be read as aggression in that context.

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

I keep misspelling "waving" and you aren't correcting me :P

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Har har...

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Cats also go "meow"

Public Displays of Affection.

Not sure what you mean. The heterosexist assumption is the default one. You expect the person in front of you to be "like you" (or something). Having your heterosexist assumption debunked can be distressing and if you assume that every person who debunks your assumption is "aggressive" and/or "annoying" the problem is with your prejudice, not their behaviour.

Queers aren't segregated from straight society the way Orthodox Jewry allows itself to be segregated from Sexular society.

(If you're going to reply, know that I'm off to bed and will reply to that sometime tomorrow).

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

Good morning :)

Well, meowing is okay. PDA's can be different, too. I'm not more fond of lame heterosexual ones than I am of queer ones.

I mean that most people are into the opposite sex. Therefore, if you're going to assume anything about their sexuality at all, the safer bet is to say straight. You expect the person in front of you to be like most people, in the absence of any additional information. What is unpleasant is if people go "wow" when they hear that that assumption was false, because such a reaction means they either weren't well aware of the existence of other options, or didn't treat other options on the same footing, and neither of these should be particularly pleasant for a gay person to face.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Hello!

Someone liking or disliking PDA's isn't the point. The point is that there is a souble standard of those showing PDA's depending on whether the relationship appears same-sex or opposite sex.

I don't know what you mean by most people or what difference is should make what. Heterosexuality is placed on a pedestal is the culture we live in. Every other type of relationship is then seen as curiosity/illegitimate. I think generalising the people whose identity doesn't have a chance to be "default" is wrong.

[shelestel.livejournal.com]

My argument, to the extent I'm not just procrastinating, is as follows: Imagine a bag with balls of different colours. It has 10 red balls, 3 green ones, and 1 blue. Suppose you (repeatedly) put your hand in the bag and blindly draw one ball (and then return it). Drawing a red one will not be much of a surprise. In fact, you'd expect the ball you randomly draw to be red. If, on the other hand, you drew the blue ball, you'd be a little "cool!", because it's an improbable event. Or you could go "hm, odd." Eventually, you'd get used to occasionally drawing the blue ball, but the majority of balls would still be red. I think that this process of "getting used to blue balls" is a one that you'd want to exempt from criticism, because it is intimately linked to how the brain works.

But I don't think it's a very strong analogy :).

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

...

You just wanted to write "blue balls" didn't you?

[aesiron.livejournal.com]

I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who makes such gross generalizations to people they don't know very well, and while I admire you having a forty minute conversation with him, I don't think I'd've lasted. I would have extricated myself as quickly as possible.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know what you mean, but it also ended up being a "let's get to know each other" talk. It just so happens that it was wrapped in an unfortunate discussion.

[quicksilvermad.livejournal.com]

You know how you automatically stiffen and you feel your tummy drop a bit when you perceive a threat?
That's the exact same feeling you get when you narrowly avoid (or get into) a car accident (or you pass a idling cop car and you know you were speeding). Did you get that metal taste in the "sour" part of your mouth, too? That happens to me.

This also happens when my dad and I get into those discussions where he adamantly denies being homophobic and I try and explain to him the difference between fear and masking that fear with phrases like: "I've had plenty of gay friends." When I've seen that gut reaction on his face when things like Prop 8 are discussed in the news I know he'll never get it. It's so brief, but there is disgust there—something he probably isn't even consciously aware of (Thanks, Lie to Me for making me more aware of micro-expressions). If I went up to him tomorrow and said, "Dad, I have a very strong feeling that I might be attracted to other women," he would calmly explode. Because the disgust is there.

*HUG*
You know what? I love you because of the way you are. Not "despite" it. Because if you weren't Bi like you said, you wouldn't be You. Does that make sense?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

*hugs back*
I greatly appreciate your anecdote about your father. I know that using strong words like "homophobia" cause immediate defensive reactions, which is the point. I mean, that accusation empties any claim of neutrality of opinion, which Is very important when discussing prejudice. It's can be compared to using "what you said was racist", "what you said was sexist".

I get what you mean with the "because of" and not "despite of", though it's just a facet of my identity and not something I'd like to be defined by, sometimes you just don't have a choice.

I love you too, hon! Thank you for your encouraging comment!

[quicksilvermad.livejournal.com]

I admire your ability to have such a long discussion with this guy, by the way. Especially when you ended up talking in circles. I'm such a hot head that I'm positive I wouldn't be able to do that.