Your Kind are not Welcome Here!
Jun. 27th, 2009 04:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
eumeliaRemember how yesterday I wrote how Pride went without incidence?
Well, if you read the comments, you'll see that it wasn't 100% without incident.
The night after the march there were parties over the city, including a Dress-Up Gender Blender. Four friends left the club, a bunch of thugs caught sight of them and didn't seem to be able to handle the fact that Transpeople and Lesbians were walking around unashamed.
They began to curse and swear at the Transwoman - shall remain nameless as I do not have her permission to put her name here - who tried to reason with them; they demanded that she "fight like a man".
Her friends came to help, and they were beaten up as well.
A bystander came to their help and got them across the street.
At this time no one is placing any charges with the police. Even if they did, it would be unlikely that any good would come of it.
The Transwoman told a friend of hers that this sort of thing is practically a daily occurrence. That this is nothing special.
I cannot begin to imagine living like that. To be targeted because you do not fit an inmage is a person's mind.
Because the idea of gender variance is such a danger to the patriarchal frame in which we live and so few actually question.
The frisking was far more malicious than I first thought. I heard they were very touchy feely with Transpeople, Butch Dykes and people who came cross-dressed.
I got off lightly. As is generally the case.
I'm so pissed off I am barely coherent.
When I spoke about to my sister, regarding the body search, she said it was to cover their asses. There is covering ones ass and there is assault - and yes, as was commented - that kind of groping and humiliation is assault.
But it is soft and for "our own safety", no one who was there to protect us would ever consider us fair game for some identity policing: "It may be fine for you to march, but your right to exist as human beings is still questioned".
I think that because [Southern!Girl] is the first girl I've dated long enough to introduce to the family as my GF and to be public about it without too many closet issues, it has really brought home all the issues I don't think I've ever had to deal with before.
I've been secure in my Bi identity for years, dating men, however, did make me blind to the politics of such an identity - and only when I began to be Queer - which happened after I was discharged from the IDF - did I also become more politically aware in general.
Getting back to my point.
I remember being asked; what is so special about being gay*?
*The mainstream umbrella term for anyone who is not straight. There is a bit of an issue getting LGBT into mainstream discourse... let's not even talk about the word Queer - that's a whole can of worms.
The assumption of heterosexuality is so strong and so destructive. Not only that, the assumption of what is the right kind of heterosexual, what is normative, creates categories so rigid and so suffocating that people literally die from it.
Homo-les-bi-transphobia is not just the violence that those people had to endure as I wrote above.
It is the double standard placed upon such an identity. The policing of when such an identity is approved of (only inside away from the public).
I was told that being Out as a Mother can also cause problems in the workplace.
Sexism is indeed a problem.
The Mother identity is very much a problematic one for women.
However, being a mother makes you automatically accepted as a (re)producer in society. Being a mother is not an illegitimate identity as an identity - the problem is with public expectations from Mothers.
Gay identity is perceived as a threat to the building blocks of society, because it automatically rejects the heteronormative roles forced upon us from fetushood.
Even by becoming parents, which in Israel helps a lot - because a child is a blessing in breeding centric society like mine - who you are still under threat: "you're a real woman now" to a woman, who may very well be in the middle of transitioning to a man.
Not to mention that the assumption still remains hetero, there must be a father somewhere and there must be a mother somewhere.
And of course... there must be Female Mothers and Male Fathers.
My point.
The point it.
There are places in which we can walk without fear, but only a small percentage of us. We are still stated at, gawked at, whispered about, "who is the man? who is the woman", "you just need a Real Man", "Are you sure?", "It's just a phase", "Must you advertise your sexuality".
All that. It's got to go. Not in a while. Not in a generation maybe two. Pronto.
Well, if you read the comments, you'll see that it wasn't 100% without incident.
The night after the march there were parties over the city, including a Dress-Up Gender Blender. Four friends left the club, a bunch of thugs caught sight of them and didn't seem to be able to handle the fact that Transpeople and Lesbians were walking around unashamed.
They began to curse and swear at the Transwoman - shall remain nameless as I do not have her permission to put her name here - who tried to reason with them; they demanded that she "fight like a man".
Her friends came to help, and they were beaten up as well.
A bystander came to their help and got them across the street.
At this time no one is placing any charges with the police. Even if they did, it would be unlikely that any good would come of it.
The Transwoman told a friend of hers that this sort of thing is practically a daily occurrence. That this is nothing special.
I cannot begin to imagine living like that. To be targeted because you do not fit an inmage is a person's mind.
Because the idea of gender variance is such a danger to the patriarchal frame in which we live and so few actually question.
The frisking was far more malicious than I first thought. I heard they were very touchy feely with Transpeople, Butch Dykes and people who came cross-dressed.
I got off lightly. As is generally the case.
I'm so pissed off I am barely coherent.
When I spoke about to my sister, regarding the body search, she said it was to cover their asses. There is covering ones ass and there is assault - and yes, as was commented - that kind of groping and humiliation is assault.
But it is soft and for "our own safety", no one who was there to protect us would ever consider us fair game for some identity policing: "It may be fine for you to march, but your right to exist as human beings is still questioned".
I think that because [Southern!Girl] is the first girl I've dated long enough to introduce to the family as my GF and to be public about it without too many closet issues, it has really brought home all the issues I don't think I've ever had to deal with before.
I've been secure in my Bi identity for years, dating men, however, did make me blind to the politics of such an identity - and only when I began to be Queer - which happened after I was discharged from the IDF - did I also become more politically aware in general.
Getting back to my point.
I remember being asked; what is so special about being gay*?
*The mainstream umbrella term for anyone who is not straight. There is a bit of an issue getting LGBT into mainstream discourse... let's not even talk about the word Queer - that's a whole can of worms.
The assumption of heterosexuality is so strong and so destructive. Not only that, the assumption of what is the right kind of heterosexual, what is normative, creates categories so rigid and so suffocating that people literally die from it.
Homo-les-bi-transphobia is not just the violence that those people had to endure as I wrote above.
It is the double standard placed upon such an identity. The policing of when such an identity is approved of (only inside away from the public).
I was told that being Out as a Mother can also cause problems in the workplace.
Sexism is indeed a problem.
The Mother identity is very much a problematic one for women.
However, being a mother makes you automatically accepted as a (re)producer in society. Being a mother is not an illegitimate identity as an identity - the problem is with public expectations from Mothers.
Gay identity is perceived as a threat to the building blocks of society, because it automatically rejects the heteronormative roles forced upon us from fetushood.
Even by becoming parents, which in Israel helps a lot - because a child is a blessing in breeding centric society like mine - who you are still under threat: "you're a real woman now" to a woman, who may very well be in the middle of transitioning to a man.
Not to mention that the assumption still remains hetero, there must be a father somewhere and there must be a mother somewhere.
And of course... there must be Female Mothers and Male Fathers.
My point.
The point it.
There are places in which we can walk without fear, but only a small percentage of us. We are still stated at, gawked at, whispered about, "who is the man? who is the woman", "you just need a Real Man", "Are you sure?", "It's just a phase", "Must you advertise your sexuality".
All that. It's got to go. Not in a while. Not in a generation maybe two. Pronto.
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no subject
Date: 2009-06-27 07:46 pm (UTC)In astronomy, there's something called "The Copernican Principle". This basically means that we, as humans, do not inhabit a special place in the middle of the universe. Darwin went one further and showed us that humans are not a special kind of animal.
What you're saying is that heterosexuality is not a special kind of sexuality.
Well, good luck... centuries of hard facts haven't been able to mute opposition to those two principles. How do you expect people who think that the world was created 6,000 years ago (or people who don't think at all) to be able to get off the pedestal of being "special"?
Education is the answer. The problem with that is, that it takes time.
For many people, including those you despair of, it's just a matter of education, getting used to the idea, seeing some positive non-heterosexual role-models and so on - a process which is taking place today. But for others, especially those more likely to be violent, you've got to accept that it will take a long time to accept that
their grandparents were monkeysnon-pure-heterosexuality is legitimate.All that. It's got to go. Not in a while. Not in a generation maybe two. Pronto.
Not gonna happen that fast, unless you're endorsing violence.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-27 09:01 pm (UTC)First of all, plenty of highly educated people are asses and hate mongers, I don't need to tell you this.
Second of all, Positive non-heterosexual role models and the passage of time are not the cure-all you seem to think.Same-sex sexuality has existed the same amount of time as opposite-sex sexuality.
Plato and Aristotle said it was superior to opposite-sex sexuality. They were great bum buddies you know. And despite that, thousands of years later, we're still plagued by homophobia
In our modern times, creating and writing "positive" queer role-models for the non-LGBT population is mostly al a "Will and Grace" - in which gays are accessories or titillation.
By the way, when was the last time you heard of people simply "accepting" the fact that they are oppressed.
You telling to accept the fact that it will take time is the equivalent of telling me to stop whining about a bloody wound that isn't being treated because the ambulance is stuck in traffic while I'm surrounded by people who have chosen to ignore this fact! What I'm saying is that those people, who are refusing to look my way, open their eyes. Obviously people don't like to give up their privilege.
Should I be thanking you for stating the obvious in the most condescending way I've had the displeasure to read?
no subject
Date: 2009-06-27 09:19 pm (UTC)I never said that Positive non-heterosexual role models and the passage of time are enough.
I never said stop fighting for rights.
All I said is that it takes time. I gave you two examples of similar cases where people are uneducated and unenlightened - where it is taking centuries to get people to open their eyes.
Where did I tell you to accept the fact that you're oppressed? All I'm saying is that it's a long term problem - with a long term solution. Obviously, if you don't fight, it will take longer.
The purpose of my post was to draw the similarities between people not accepting Helio-centricity, Darwinism and non-pure-Heterosexuality.
I don't know why you were displeased.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 11:22 am (UTC)I never said that Positive non-heterosexual role models and the passage of time are enough.
I never said stop fighting for rights.
That was certainly what you implied! Your entire comment was an endorsement of treating the issue of Human Rights as though they are some arbitrary, abstract and not-really-human goal.
All I said is that it takes time. I gave you two examples of similar cases where people are uneducated and unenlightened - where it is taking centuries to get people to open their eyes.
Perhaps I wasn't strong enough in my language, but what
Where did I tell you to accept the fact that you're oppressed? All I'm saying is that it's a long term problem - with a long term solution. Obviously, if you don't fight, it will take longer.
Here: "Well, good luck... centuries of hard facts haven't been able to mute opposition to those two principles. How do you expect people who think that the world was created 6,000 years ago (or people who don't think at all) to be able to get off the pedestal of being "special"?"
Telling me education is the answer is akin to giving me a pat on the head and saying "there, there".
Do you honestly think that us simple people do not know that education is a tool? Are you really so unaware that there are queer oriented education programs, like Hoshen (http://www.hoshen.org/), Tehila (http://www.tehila.org.il/) and IGY (http://igy.org.il/content/index.html).
I'm displeased that you would presume to tell me how long I should wait until other people feel comfortable with my existence as a person, while I watch people walk about the world without ever having to think about why they might be offending, or scaring, or how safe we actually are in a place because we are holding hands or kissing.
That isn't the Sun or my uncle the Monkey.
That is life right now. You saying it will take time is stating the obvious and normalising the oppression that permeates our culture, putting people at risk.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 12:10 pm (UTC)Maybe it's got something to do with my hetero-sexuality?
My comment was meant to be one of commiseration. It's difficult to get people to think that they're not special.
I didn't say that you should stop working at it. I was commiserating that these things are difficult and take a lot of time. Obviously, if you don't do something then things won't get better by themselves.
I'm sorry if you thought mentioning education was patronizing. It's the only thing I can think of that will help in the long term. I am now unsure of what sort of comment I can make here, besides "I <3 you", which will be accepted.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 12:52 pm (UTC)People in minorities are always using some tools because they have to just to stand a chance against oppression.
What you wrote made it sound as though we've been sitting on our asses for 40 years doing nothing.
To me, and obviously to others, it sounded that as you were saying "toughen up" when we have the right to feel kind of crappy about it.
Even though it is totally well-intentioned, what you said comes across as an utter failure to understand what was being complained about in the first place.
As a general rule, if members of a minority group expresses anger with their frustration, a member of a majority group telling them how to deal with it just exacerbates the problem.
I think that what would come across as commiserating is an acknowledgement of the problem faced and asking questions like what they can do to help, what they need, what, in an ideal world, they'd like to see happen, etc.
That being said, any comment you make here will be accepted, I try to make this space as free as possible. Your comment creating a thread of frustration isn't a rejection of you or what you say. It is a request that, when speaking of subjects that are both personal and societal, you consider how what and how you write comes across to others.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 04:25 pm (UTC)In no way did I endorse violence.
All I did was compare the problems raised here with two others. Two other problems which, on the surface, seem to be much simpler and yet are taking centuries to solve.
This by no means that solving the problem should take so much time and I apologize if that is what was understood.
Also, when I said "education is the answer", I didn't mean that people are not being educated right now. I suppose it was "stating the obvious", but it was meant to be in a supportive, not a derogatory fashion.
Again, I suppose my wording was vague and the wrong impression was sent. I apologize.
BTW, if you think acceptance of evolution and scientific biology is irrelevant, I suggest you talk to doctors performing abortions about the problems they're facing.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 05:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 08:24 pm (UTC)Just, at times like these, I really need you to try and see things from my (our) perspective.
You know that we agree on the education thing. But the fact that it will take time is something that's actually depressing and well known, but we have to work as though what we are working for is attainable today, otherwise you just get more and more frustrated.
Again, you're a clever guy and I love you, but sometimes I feel like you miss the point which saddens and frustrates me.
Thanks for taking the time to try to understand.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 11:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 01:53 am (UTC)I'm glad that you and your friends are okay, even though I am pissed off on your behalf.
no subject
Date: 2009-06-28 11:20 am (UTC)I was not with the group attacked, but I know people, who know people... it's a tiny little swamp of people knowing other people.
And thanks!