Dryness is not enough! I demand to be warm and dry!

[eumelia]

The drainage pipe that was blocked on Tuesday was de-blocked the next day, but only after we mopped up and poured over 100 litres of rain and drain water down the shower pipes.
Even during the years that our roof leaked did I never mop up so much water and I felt so bad because it was so much wasted water (plus wet furniture, feet and floor). Thankfully we stayed on top of things before our plumber came and fixed the pipe, I had gone out, not wanting to witness the tragedy that would unfold.

It rained for two days straight, which really would never have bothered me had the rain stayed where it belonged and out of my house.

I know I'm being unfair and closed minded about the weather, but damnit I live in a First World Country, where it rains for only three-to-four months (and that's stretching it) and when it rains and inevitably pours, I demand to remain safe and dry in my own effing house!

I can see I'm getting worked up for nothing so I'll change the subject quickly.

A question (and a precurser to what will likely be my next post at some point): Is it racist to say you dislike a culture, but not necessarily the people, or do the two inevitably get mixed and you end up disliking/hating the culture and people (race/ethnicity) of said culture?

The question arose discussion I had last night and I realise it is very vague, so I'll expand on it later on (hopefully today, but I make no promises and no solemn swears).

Comments

[geekosaur]

Is it racist to say you dislike a culture, but not necessarily the people, or do the two inevitably get mixed and you end up disliking/hating the culture and people (race/ethnicity) of said culture?

I'd actually call those two different questions. At least. (The below is not, or not quite, split by questions, though.)

1. It is possible to disapprove of aspects of a culture without it degenerating into racism. I'd say the dividing line is one of rational discussion: can you, for example, accept why (historically or practically, etc.) those aspects are as they are, even if you disapprove of them and/or their results? (But this has to be taken carefully as it's sometimes hard to distinguish rational analysis from rationalization. Even when it's oneself doing it.)
2. In the US (the only place I can provide personal experience for) it's not all that unusual to encounter people who are *ist but nevertheless have a normal relationship with a friend who would otherwise be discriminated against. I imagine this happens between Jews and Arabs in Israel more often than most people would like to admit....
3. And it is indeed possible to distinguish between a culture and people who are members of it... but to practice this generally instead of on a case-by-case basis (as above) requires more rational thinking than most people are willing to put effort into.
4. (this actually is the topic of a discussion I'm involved in on IRC currently!) Seems to me most *ism comes down to "like me" for some sufficient definition of "like me".
5. Observation: most people are lazy and prefer the known/understood. (If you think about it, this explains all of the above.)

[geekosaur]

And yes, I know, talk is cheap when the talker isn't under the threat of bomb attack....

[lilacsigil.livejournal.com]

It's not being unfair to want to feel safe and relaxed in your own home - I think that's a major goal for people everywhere!

Also, to say you dislike a culture sounds a bit strange to me - "a culture" is an awfully big thing, and has lots of different parts. I could say I dislike the strongly patriarchal behaviour of Australian Aboriginal cultures - including forced marriage of young teenage girls in some places - but I can't say I dislike that culture, because it has so many good things about it, too - space for women's rituals and culture, a strong sense of family and place (something really lacking in white Australian culture) and a great deal of respect for artists.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, yeah, I see what you mean.
More nourishing foodstuffs for the brain :)

[daemonfall.livejournal.com]

The only part on which I can puzzle about is that "I demand!" part. So passionate! from whom you demand that safety? from whom you can really expect to grant it to you? *puzzles*

At any rate, I don't think that there's any real distinction between "culture" and the people that compose it. You can however, say that you like specific individuals inside the collective. While disliking the overall imperative of that society.
Now, that part out of the way - is it racist to dislike a culture/group of people because of their collective imperative? I would say yes, as it is an action which is based on disliking a collective idea, some sort of cultural imperative. Anything from fashion to human sacrifice could inspire that kind of racism.

Is is a bad thing to abhor some sorts of cultural ideals, and thus being racist against that culture? Maybe yes, maybe not - it's a question about the fine line between protecting yourself and giving the other space to live in. Of course, that whole notion of "giving freedom" Is entirely a cultural imperative...

My own 0.02$ of the day. And even before I had my coffee.
Clarification later :)

[morin.livejournal.com]

I disagree.
I liked all the Americans I met on my last trip to the US. They were all very nice and helpful. I still dislike the US culture: the legalization of it, the clear "keep your nose out" that leads to seclusion and over-looking of others' problems (see the health-care and education issues around this one), the religion-led views that break privacy (you must believe in God; abortions; helping only the needy of your own church/community).
Am I racist against white, middle and high classed US citizens? No. Do I think their culture is problematic? Yes, I see so many fundamental faults in it, I would never want to be a part of it. I criticize the culture. I have nothing against the people.

[daemonfall.livejournal.com]

I hate debating over the internet :(
I just can't get the ideas through the way I want them to be heard.

To keep things short however, I think you rather summed up in real life experience what I said when you can like individuals in a society while disliking the overall imperative. You still hold the bias against the general "People" - those whom you haven't yet met, and yet to make them into individuals you can judge personaly.
So I'd say you are biased, even if on a very low profile.

And still, I disagree

[morin.livejournal.com]

I don't think those I haven't met are "bad" or that I won't like them; I like the people but not the culture.
I am biased against certain opinions; that is not racism. I don't even suppose all republicans are bad people, I just disagree with their views.

I amd not biased against the American people. I just find faults in their culture. I also find faults in my own culture. And that of of some Eurpean countries I know. And African countries. And Asian. There's not a culture without faults. Recognising them does not mean you are biased against the people grown in that culture. As a Humanist, my starting point is that people are worth it. All people, of all cultures. At least until proven otherwise.

Re: And still, I disagree

[daemonfall.livejournal.com]

So here is the dividing line - Acting upon one's beliefs is racism when it hurts deliberately at a person from a culture which is not his own. Holding that bias, is not wrong, and is not racism as of itself.
However, I for myself, cannot bring myself to put a dividing line between a man and the society that raised him - but by society I do not mean to stigmas and general lines of behavior. More like "You are what you Eat" but on a more educational way.

Re: And still, I disagree

[morin.livejournal.com]

Racism has to do with ethnicity. If you have a bias against someone of your own culture because of his skin color or the original country his parents/grandparents immigrated from, you are a racist. If you don't have a pre-decided bias against someone because of their "race", you are not a racist. If you have a pre-determined bias against every person raised in a certain culture, it's racism. If you see faults in a culture but don't have a bias against those originating in it, you are not a racist.

Racism isn't just in actions. It's also in thought. Basically, I agree with hemlock_sholes' comment lower down.

Oooh, Ta!

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

That puts everything very simply and truly for me.

You and hemlock_sholes have really helped me.

Thank you friend o'mine :)

:)

[morin.livejournal.com]

Is what friends are for, mais non?

Mais oui

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Mon ami :D

Re: And still, I disagree

[daemonfall.livejournal.com]

Finely defined line - where do you put the line between "culture" and the people that compose it?

For me it's very clear

[morin.livejournal.com]

Just the same way I hate chauvinism, but I don't hate men.
The same way I hate the concept of the woman as a lesser being in Judaism (a fault in a culture). I don't hate Jews (that would be racism).

I don't see any fine line. It's a big, heavy, thick brick wall, from where I stand.

Re: For me it's very clear

[daemonfall.livejournal.com]

Not the way I see it - Not all men practice chauvinism, so considering all of them as chauvinistic is an empty statement. I AM severely biased against chauvinistic men, and will act upon this bias. My thick brick wall is where I put the line between people who play upon cultural failures. However, I do not put a line between cultural failures and people - people ARE "culture" - the definition of what is "culture" in your context however, needs some clarification.
If you hate all men, that's racism. If you hate all men who are Chauvinistic, then you're also racist, with a finer definition of what you don't like.

There's no human whom hold no bias, the point is to find where does this bias crosses the limit between debate and violence.

My own two cents.

[morin.livejournal.com]

Sexism, actually.

Also,

[morin.livejournal.com]

What exactly is the difference between presuming all Jews are sexist, because of their culture, and presuming all men (or even, all men who served in the army) are sexist because of their culture?
It's the same bias that comes from a patronizing "I know your culture, and I know you, before ever even meeting you".

Re: Also,

[daemonfall.livejournal.com]

You are presuming all of X are Y - but your problem is not with X, it is with Y. At least that what you are saying. I say, that if all X ARE indeed Y (At least in one's point of view) then that one is indeed biased and racist against the group which is X. He might have nothing against them in person, but as long as he presumes that Y is correct about all the subjects in the group, he will still act upon it, or put it into his data that he acts upon.
Thus, creating racism.
Of course, this is subject to amount of effect and ways of dealing with your educational payload.

However, as the emotional bearing of the world "Racist" is rather heavy, I use the world "Bias" - which is easier to swallow.
(I don't WANT know how many grammar mistakes I did in this little thing...)

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

You whole discussion with morin was/is fascinating!

Thanks you for answering my question, this is fun, I should do this more often.

[thecityofdis.livejournal.com]

Re: first world, the memory made me giggle and I thought you might appreciate the crazy.

The first time my best friend, who is Israeli, went to give blood, the nurses gawked at a sheet of her travel history and said, "Israel? Is that a third world country?"

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Dude, the ignorance, I giggle with thee!

[hemlock-sholes.livejournal.com]

Lets try an thought experiment.

X is a culture (or part of one).
Can one dislike doing X while liking people who practice X?

Replace X with Vegetarianism, Being a workaholic or Painting and the answer is definitely yes.

As usual everything depends on context.
What do you mean by culture? Even a small country like Israel has more than one type culture.
Saying that one does no like american culture is a bit too vague and open ended to be taken seriously, IMO.

Culture is not just religion and political opinions :)

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

You and morin have managed to put what I thought myself into simple words.

Thanks bro!

[aesiron.livejournal.com]

Reading everyone's replies to your question was fascinating.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I know... I had no idea there's be such a discussion, no need to write another post on the subject.

[aesiron.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I was going to reply with my own thoughts but morin expressed it much better than I ever could have hoped to so I didn't even bother.

[morin.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'm flattered! :)

[wisetara.livejournal.com]

I agree with many of the fine points made here. At first, I thought big--as in Judaism. When people think of the Jewish culture, the people tend to be pretty tied up in that, and it'd probably be on the shady side of wrong to argue that dislike Jewish culture but like every Jew you've ever met.

But then I thought about Society for for Creative Anachronism (SCA) events, which is some gigantic thing that may be worldwide where people dress up in costumes, go camping, joust, etc. and it's (from what I understand) kind of like a Renaissance Faire, and there are kings and kingdoms and...well, I refer to it as "DorkFest." I think it's actually called Pennsic (I think the HUGE annual event happens in Pennsylvania, USA).

Anyway, that is a whole kind of subculture that I obviously sneer at, considering that I call it DorkFest. Well, I will be the maid of honor at my best friend's wedding next year, and she not only sews her own "garb" for the annual event, but I'm pretty sure she's marrying one of the kings. Or whatever. I am just thankful they don't want a DorkFest themed wedding. So, yeah, I dislike the SCA culture, but I like two of the SCA members quite well. Dorks though they may be.

Oh, here's a link: http://www.pennsicwar.org/.