A link for everyone to read

[eumelia]

I was browsing the 'Net and came upon a post called How not to be an asshole: a guide for men.
The comments are excellent, warning, there are lots of them.

ETA: I feel that this post may be a little harsh, I don't think it's about telling to people to shut up and not say anything about "nothing", so to speak. I believe it's about listening, about making sure the voices a heard and not canceled out. Sometimes you have to tell someone else to be quiet for a minute, sometimes you have to be obnoxious, such is life. But it's not about putting duct tape to someones mouth, it's about seeing another point of view, a point a view one may not had heard before.

Comments

[avgboojie.livejournal.com]

Uh. "How not to be an asshole: Shut the fuck up" - well, you know, this is sort of disgusting, sorry to say. No, the way to deal with something is not telling the people who disagree with you to shut up. Even if your moral values or your rhetoric etiquette allow for it (mine don't), take into account that such "arguments" as "you're fundamentally wrong, you have no idea, shut up" tend to antagonize people on the receiving end (and rightfully so), which doesn't really achieve any ends.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's about disagreeing, I think it's about listening, about being quiet for long enough to hear what the other person is saying.
The title is harsh, but it's a subject one shouldn't ignore.
*shrug* I'm often accused of speaking too loudly and saying too much, so this post spoke to me.

[avgboojie.livejournal.com]

Oh. And you want to achieve THAT end by telling the other person, "shut the fuck up, I'm NOT listening to you, see, I stuck my fingers in my ears, la la la la la"? How exactly would that achieve the end of making people listen to each other, pray explain? Or is it just YOU you want people to listen to, and shut the fuck up all others?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I think the author is being harsh in order to show the extreme point of view, I may not always have the best attention span, but I always listen to what the other person is saying, I think that in this specific subject, people should be quiet for a bit a listen to what other people have to say.
I've been told to shut up and I've told other people to shut up, usually not in those words, but certainly with that in mind, it's in order to make sure we are heard, I don't think telling someone to "shut up" is a good thing, but when that someone insists on "knowing what's best" or flat out ignores me, then yes, I think I'm entitles to say what I think and what I want.
Not ideal, but sometimes you have to be mean in order to get people to pay attention to you.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

There has to be a better way of having the debate than my alienating and antagonising 'all men'.

[hakuzo.livejournal.com]

Thank you. =)

As for her experiment, I did something similar. I tried posing as a female in several sites. I did get harassed, but most of the harassment was in the form of people wanting to have cyber-sex. I never received any rape threats. The reaction she got may have been partly because of her attitude, and what chat rooms she went in.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Oops, I made a typo, by instead of my. But.

I... remain very careful about maintaining a very neutral stance on these sorts of debates these days, having had some very ugly fallings out. But just about every time I've ever tried to engage on these topics, as a straight male, I have wound up, ironically enough, feeling like a victim, and attacked, and generally told to STFU by feminists.

Thus I am alienated and antagonised, and no longer have an opinion that I'm prepared to express in public.

It would be an interesting experiment to try. I have a gender neutral screen-name on IM, and have never received anything, except for occasional Jesus spam. That was weird.

[hakuzo.livejournal.com]

I sympathize with the movement, but I'll never be a part of it, mainly because of polemics like the one we just read. Why aid a cause that considers you the enemy, no matter what you do or say? Would you ladies join the He-Man Woman Haters? I think both extremes are equally ridiculous.

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

It's a problem I also have with most of the left-leaning radical sections of politics. They're all so busy fighting each other, and falling out, and making enemies out of people who should be friends, that the right-wing went and got organised, unified, and won a massive and permanent victory.

[antongarou.livejournal.com]

I really, really disagree with that post.Do you know why?Because I think many of those "dispassionate" men are simply good, decent people who have been sheltered and simply can't believe that so many of the other men aren't, or people with some remaining subconscious prejudice which this will help them identify and fight.

The right way to engage them isn't to shout at them "It's there and if you can't see it you're a moron/asshole/misogynist", that will just antagonize if they were only "on the fence" before or maybe even leaning a bit to your side- the right way is to have a list of such works ready(maybe create a central one on the net for communal use on such occasions?) and *refer them to it*.

[antongarou.livejournal.com]

It should be "just antagonize *them*" of course

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I think many of those "dispassionate" men are simply good, decent people who have been sheltered and simply can't believe that so many of the other men aren't, or people with some remaining subconscious prejudice which this will help them identify and fight.

I agree with you on that, seeing as I'm related to a few of those men :). But still, I think the language he uses is harsh, indeed too harsh, and like I said to Boojie, it's about listening, about knowing when to be quiet and at times, demanding the right to be listened to.

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

I don't agree.

Let's take Roy I work with as an example, all right? The guy has a good heart. The guy can tell right from wrong. On most accounts, it is impossible to mistake him for holding any chauvinistic prejudice.

He claimed that there was absolutely no way that Ramon kissed that officer against her will. He doesn't really get why Yehu and I are each willing to hang Katzav from his balls with our own hands. (Okay, Yehu wouldn't do it himself, but he'll watch.)

He's joking about those things. Each time I ask him to not do that. I explain that it's offensive to me. That it's a form of harassment itself.

He is not getting it. Maybe if someone who's not a 1.5m blonde would slap him upside the head, hard, he'll get it. Or at least, will slow down enough to consider that maybe he'd been doing something wrong.

[antongarou.livejournal.com]

The question is, how good a general example is he?I honestly don't know.As I honestly don't know if the people I talk about are a majority, hence "many" rather then "most".

I simply believe that you'll get much farther by treating people as serious, concerned, adults who want to know rather then as small children(and STFU is treating the other side as a child) unless they have merited such a treatment.And no, a request for information doesn't merit such treatment IMO.

PS.Another point:Would the STFU "treatment" work with Roy?

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

As said, slapping Roy upside the head - verbally, but violently so - is the only thing that works. Then he shuts up, sulks, and returns two days later asking "What did I do to earn that?" and as willing to listen as he'll ever be.

*shrug* I usually believe that those who can't learn on their own aren't worth teaching.

[antongarou.livejournal.com]

*shrug* I usually believe that those who can't learn on their own aren't worth teaching.

You know, not everybody is aware enough of the matter to go learn those things themselves, and not everybody knows where to look.And if you want to raise awareness *these* are the populations you should target most of all, because they have the potential to do the most good because they can go back to *their* friends and raise awareness.

[kaetien.livejournal.com]

Despite being of the female persuasion, I organically can't understand much about feminism or a lot about this link you posted.

I have indeed been victimized by men before. I've been victimized by women, too. I personally do not have any of the "fear of men" described in this article. I can see how some women might have it, but I simply can't imagine living your life in fear.

I'm all for being aware of your surroundings - I rarely leave the house unarmed save for going to work. I carry a weapon knowing that it's unlikely I'll have to use it, and if I do I know how to use it and will protect myself at all costs. I am aware of how many misogynistic jerks there are in the world. I am also equally aware that there are as many psychotic feminazis in the world. I have dealt with both and care for neither. I do a fair job staying out of their way and don't think about 'em much.

There will always be disparity between the sexes. I prefer to focus on what I consider more prevalent issues.

(Amusing sidenote: my male better half went to a feminism event that I declined to go to. Hilarity!)

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

(I am amused by your side note :)

I don't live in "fear" either, but If I'm alone, I'll be much more aware of the men around me, it's just a precaution that's been a part of my life since I was little.

[kaetien.livejournal.com]

I will teach my children to be wary of others in the same fashion, regardless if I have a son or a daughter. Years ago my best friend was raped and beaten - my male best friend.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

*thumbs up* And I'm sorry that happened to your friend.

I hope you saw my raising sexual violence post, it's so important for people to realize that this is a social disease.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Gah, raising sexual violence awareness

Stupid fast typing.

[kaetien.livejournal.com]

I'm not so much of an activist myself. There are far too many things wrong with society for me to pick one or two to get involved in :P