"There's battle lines being drawn/Nobody's right if everybody's wrong"

[eumelia]

Edited:
Internet discussions have a way of getting out of hand.
Each side cannot really "hear" what the other is saying so the language has to be very concise and accurate and so often each side comes off quite aggressive and patronising.

In an odd turn of events I found myself defending Israel in a way I never had to before.
It was strange, since I'm not really sure how it came to that since all I did was agree with someone, but that's what you get for forsaking your anonymity on-line.

It really bothers me, it shouldn't since it's just a discussion, but it bothers me that instead of hearing, well reading, what I have to say I'm attacked ad hominem for saying something that the other side doesn't agree on.

It's fine that people don't agree, that's what liberty and freedom of speech is about, disagreeing and, like Voltaire, I will die for that right, but it's not okay to tell someone, who is living in the middle of all the shit that goes on here, that they have no idea what's going on here.
It's a total brush off and disregard to the fact that yes Israelis suffer here too.

The Palestinians have it bad on every single front, yes they do. They're in the shit because of Israel, because of Fatah, because of Hamas, because of many, many reasons.
And yes Israel does horrible things (the Wall, the siege on Gaza, the Settlers in Hebron, the "check points") and they are all humiliating and degrading and dehumanizing.
But Hamas launches quasam rockets on Sderot everyday, children in Palestine are taught not to try and do better than their previous generation, but that their deaths will be glorious.

To those living outside Israel it seems easy, just give back the land and have the borders of 67'. Man do I wish and hope we'll come to that, but the current leaders of the Palestinian Authority aren't interested in those borders, they want more, perhaps all. *shrug* at this point it's moot because the West Bank is scattered with settlements I'd be happy to see gone, because that land really isn't Israel's.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the situation ain't black and white and it's not west vs. east and it's not Muslims vs. Jews.
It's about two entities with a river of blood between them and the fact that in a discussion where I said everybody suffered I was told that I don't understand the conflict I've been living in my entire life.

I was very sad to realise that the people abroad with whom I should be aligned with politically, feel I have nothing to offer in a discussion of that kind simply because I showed a different perspective.
But then again it's as the saying goes: "Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do".
You go in a certain direction for too long and you'll eventually get to the other side.

Also those of who don't know the The Euston Manifesto should read it ASAP. To quote it: "It is vitally important for the future of progressive politics that people of liberal, egalitarian and internationalist outlook should now speak clearly."

Comments

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Some of the very worst fallings out I have had online with people have been with people I have fundementally agreed with, but they have just not heard, and chosen to fall out anyway.

(Plus, the left is notorious for making enemies out of friends. It's part of why the right wing conservative loonies have won.)

There's a whole bunch of subjects I now just DO NOT have an opinion on. From Israel/Palestine, to rape, to feminism, etc. It's just, not worth the drama of expressing any sort of opinion anywhere.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I know, I think I'm going to stop commenting about Israel/Palestine in places which are not my LJ.

It just went down hill so fast and all I did was agree with someone!

[gonzo21.livejournal.com]

Even in ones own LJ. I had a horrible falling out about a month ago with somebody who I thought was a really close friend, because of something I said in my own LJ.

And have you noticed how people take things said on the internet far too seriously sometimes?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Damn, that's harsh.

Yeah. Tell me about it.

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

Why don't you link to the original discussion?

I'm going to go critical on some things you said. You may want to stop reading this comment now.

In an odd turn of events I found myself defending Israel.

Do I even need to point how wrong the above statement sounds? Perhaps the original context (which you didn't link to) would've salvaged it; from what I gather from your post, that's not likely.
When you say something like that, without context, the underlying statement is that you are living at a country which has nothing truly defendable about it. As if Arabs of Israeli citizenship are not allowed to go to the same universities as I, a Jew; as if they are not treated at the same hospitals; as Arabs of Israeli citizenship are not allowed to become doctors, lawyers, teacher, to own businesses.
Or is Israel taking extreme measures to protect itself - understanding that for Israeli soldiers, for Israeli politicians, the lives of Israelis come before other rights of the Palestinians and yes, to defend the former the latter may suffer? If so, then no 'strange turn of events' is required for you to defend Israel - as, unfortunately, there is nothing strange about idiot Leftists or other implicit-antisemitics.

Fact is, that doesn't mean Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Self-determination is exactly what it is, self-determination, and I'm not sure if the current Palestinian government will allow the people that right. In any event Israel is deteriorating fast as theocracy begins to seep in much faster than before. Secular Israeli Jews are fast becoming a rare breed.

Did you have a point in there? I'm sorry, I might have lost it as there is no logical connection between sentences in this paragraph. How does the Palestinian government prevent Self-Determination from its people, and what does that have to do with rising religiousness in Israel?

I guess what I'm trying to say is the situation ain't black and white and it's not west vs. east and it's not Jews vs. Arabs.
It's about two entities with a river of blood between them

While I agree that reality is rarely dichotomous, the only way in which I agree with the statement that this is not about "Jews vs. Arabs" is because it is Muslims vs. Jews.
Muslims and not Arabs: hello, Iran? So very not Arab, they, which is another reason for Saudia Arabia to dislike them. But they're Muslim, and they call as the "little Devil", and if you're into defending human rights then they're certainly siding with the devil, here.
Oh, and it's now about West vs. East, is it now? That's why Europe still has unchecked monarchies, of course, or 'presidents' selected by 99% of the populaiton election campaign after election campaign. That's why in the US, black and white people still go on separate busses. That's why in Japan, women are not allowed to have a driver's license. Because this is not about modern, 'West'-originated culture, attacked by everything and everyone else. (So yeah, the 'vs.' direction is reversed here, also.)
Because reasons of ethnicity and culture are not at all the causes of the 'river of blood' you describe.

I was very sad to realise that the people abroad with whom I should be aligned with politically, feel I have nothing to offer in a discussion of that kind simply because I showed a different perspective.

The simple answer to that is that you should not be aligned with those people politically, because apparently whoever it was who attacked your opinion doesn't truly believe in what you believe in - namely, equality and 'human rights' for all.
You know reality is more complex than that, the the political and ideological fields are more complex than that. Is racist Left new to you? Is intolerant Left new to you? How and why should you be aligned with such ideas and such people?

I'll be screening these comments if you don't mind and the one you wrote.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

It happened in a locked post and I'd rather keep it academic so as not to be spammed.

Going to answer your criticism in chronological order:
#1 'Kay, fair enough, I'll edit, wrote it at three o'clock in the morning, so a lot of this is obviously very tired stream of consciousness stuff.

#2 Again, stream of consciousness stuff, I'll edit to make more sense. It's fun having a critical editor :)

#3 It is West (ideas) Vs. East (ideas) because the West is the "conquerer" and the East is the conquered and userped. And you're right it is Muslims and not Arabs, again I'll edit.
And I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the examples of prejudice there.

#4 I was disappointed because on every other issue, we would (most likely) agree and be allies, so I was saddened because of that.

I don't understand the need to screen, but your call.

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

#3 - I seem to have had a typo there. My original comment should read: "Oh, and it's not about West vs. East, is it now?" The paragraph that follows should make more sense now, in its sarcastic way.

Also, the West is the conqueror of Iran, Aphganistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the rest of them how? Don't go suicidal, pseudo-libera post-modernist on me, Mel: you know damn right that if a culture justified shooting gay people and not allowing women the same rights as men, then that culture damn right deserves to be usurped and obliterated.

Re: I don't understand the need to screen, but your call.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

You know very well that's not what I'm saying.

People are still thinking in Colonial terms, since there is much residue of colonialism all over the "East" and "Orient".

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

"It is West (ideas) Vs. East (ideas) because the West is the "conquerer" and the East is the conquered and userped."

The above seems to mean "If it is indeed a war between the ideologies represented by the West and the ideologies represented by the right, it's because the West is usurping the East." - thus implying that the 'East' is only trying to defend itself, effectively justifying these people's actions.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I thought I was implying that the "East" is stuck on blaming other nations rather than looking at their own gov.

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

Maybe if you put it: "...because the West is the "conqueror" and the East claims to be conquered and usurped." - but then it doesn't mesh with the first half of the sentence ("It is West (ideas) Vs. East (ideas)..."). Anyway the first half of the sentence in question doesn't mesh with your original claim that "it's not west vs. east".

[djvande.livejournal.com]

Have to throw my two cents in on this one, for what its worth . . .

From what I've encountered, there is definitely a strong pack of liberal-minded young people in the U.S. and "the West" that have chosen to straight up ignore any plight of the Israelis. When I first went to Palestine, I despised the Israelis, though without fully realising why. You see, there's a group in the U.S. called "Hillel" . . . the Jewish Student Union on college campuses (I'll assume you're familiar with it). Hillel groups in my neck of the woods tend to be fiercely anti-Palestinian, and often disrupt lectures/events when the speaker is Palestinian, someone with a pro-Palestinian point of view, or just generally speaking on a topic they're not fond of. (they usually flood the audience and then attack the speaker with harassing questions to the point in which he/she can't even speak)

Anyhow, this is what I knew of Israelis (and actually Jews in general) before I came to Isratine. I can more or less assure you that the 50+ other Westerners that I met during my time in Palestine had the same or similar experiences. Honestly, it wasn't until I went there, and aptly started dating an Israeli, that I actually met pro-Palestinian Israelis. Go figure.

Anyhow, my point is this- Most non-Jewish, non-conservative/Republican Americans have a very distorted view of the conflict (well, don't we all have a distorted view?). I thought that after spending six months in Palestine I would have developed a greater hate of Israelis, but just the opposite happened. Now that I'm back home and surrounded by my usual group of liberal pro-Palestinian pals, I find myself *constantly* defending Israeli causes.

Oh, if only every hippie, anti-Israeli American college student could date an IDF soldier . . . the world would be a much more understanding place :)

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I had no idea "Hillel" had such intolerant chapters. *sigh*

You said it! Your two cents are very valuable, because what I did was agree with someone using an example of what happens in Israel and I was called "oppressive", "ignorant of the situation" and that my Zionist Ideologies were not welcome... What Zionist ideologies?! The word ideology or Zionism never even came up.

It saddened me that the people who should be the most open minded would completely disregard what I had to say... and I wasn't even disagreeing with them I was giving a different perspective.

It's all very frustrating.

[djvande.livejournal.com]

Wars are rarely one-sided. There are people on both sides (or all sides) that want peace and innocent people that get hurt/killed. You're right, you would think educated, open-minded people would understand that.

When I was working for PNN, I had to *constantly* harass my supervisor (who was American) to include news of Israeli victims on the website. After I guilt tripped her, she would cave and say "Fine, but its going at the bottom of the page." So, I did my best to make sure the missile attacks in Sderot and the like were covered . .. but they were definitely not a priority (by my supervisor's standards).

I had another tiff with her about the use of the term "armed resistance member" vs. "militant". I was required to use the former at all times. Fine, its true that a lot of Palestinian violence is initiated in response to Israeli attacks. But there's a limit. And I really, really struggled with using "armed resistance member" in stories about Sderot and Ashkelon, among others.

[esizzle.livejournal.com]

Sorry to intrude to your personal journal but since this is a public journal I am guessing you don't mind two much. You're right that it's not black and white. But then how come you go on to say that it's "It's about two entities with a river of blood between them".

There is more than two entities in this! There's the Israeli Zionists, the Christian Zionists, the 'left-wing' Zionists, the non-Israeli Jews, the non-Israeli Jewish activisits, the Israeli Jewish activists, in international 'community', the US, the Arabs, the Palestinians internal in Israel, the Palestinians in the occupied terrirtories, the Palestinians in the West, the Palestinians other Arabic countries, the Christian Palestinians, the Muslimm Paletsinians, and between each group, there are even smaller groups in terms of political perspectives and aspirations. This isn't about two entities.

And, just like how you wouldn't tell an upperclass bourgeoise that they understand the problem of poverty since they've never lived a day in their life without money, I dont think it's fair for an Israeli to say that they understand the problems that Palestinians live with. Just because you suffered? Everybody in the world has suffered!

No, I don't mind at all, just don't troll

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I say two entities because the basic issues is the Israeli Occupation of the Palestinians, that's the basic and if you're going to get into all the little sub issues that are inside this then you're never going to get anywhere.

more than anything I want Israel to get the hell out of the Occupied Territories and give the Palestinians a chance for a viable government. The conflict, however, goes beyond "Palestinians good, Israelis Bad" which I think is a naive view of the way things are here.

And I don't presume to understand what the Palestinians endure, I never said I "Knew" how can I? I'm an Israeli Jew and have a hell of a lot more going for me than most people in this country, but me being an Israeli Jew, doesn't give anyone the right to make ad hominem attacks on me because I'm critical of the Hamas, Fatah and others in the Palestinian leadership who, incidentally, treat their people like shit.
And you personally bringing Zionism into our prior discussion on a different LJ just showed that you didn't bother to read what I was saying, all you saw was I didn't agree with your view completely.
Disagreement in fine, I think it's a good thing, because there's nothing worse than blindly following popular opinion, or any other opinion if you don't know where it comes from.