ישראלית סרבנית

[eumelia]

.סרבנות על רקע פמיניסטי

הכתבה באנגלית.
מה דעתכם?

Comments

[zazuomgwtf.livejournal.com]

I have to say I support her 100%.
she easily could have gotten out of the army with no fuss by claiming to be religious and doing national service, but she chose to go the hard way and try to make a change.

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

I say, bullshit. The text of that girl's that's quoted sounds like a highly-indoctarinated teenager who still sees black or white, and not reality.

Not impressed.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Ditto

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I think if we lived in different times I would have agreed, but the army is still a needed one in Israel, so...

However, it was her choice and she didn't balk, so good on her for that.

[zazuomgwtf.livejournal.com]

but does the army need to be so paternalistic?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

There is indeed a need for reform in the army, I agree, and what feminists, at this time should fight for, IMO, is equal service for both sexes and equal opportunities in the units, that all units, including the Sayarot and Comando, be open to women, that's the only way they'll be a truly egalitarian army, which will also open the way to egalitarian politics, since so many of the politicians are "army men", there should be "army women".
I really believe, that if women got in there with an equal force as men, there could be a drastic change.

Whew... ramble... sorry *sheepish smile*

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

It isn't so paternalistic. Not remotely. I served, all my friends served (all the girls - one guy balked out) - and it's not half as bad as they made it out to be in that 'article', if I can call it that. The views presented there were those of a teenager who's speaking for an idealized POV which isn't representative of a very complex, highly coloured reality.

I'm not saying it isn't a male-competetive enviroment where women (i'm talking commissioned individuals here, not the compulsory people) need to work harder to reach the same ranks. But it isn't half as bad as they made it out there. Barely as third as bad.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Yeah it is.
It is extremely paternalistic; you and I and all the rest had the privilidge of working in a unit in which sex and gende really had nothing to do with it, do you know how rare that is?

The Air Force is known to be a whole lot more equalised because it doesn't have "real" combat (bullshit, I know notive the ").

But I have a friend in the Shayetet, he talks about the secreteried in his unit as if they were a piece of meat.
Also, notice the women officers (yes the compulsory is different) and the way they interract with the men, with the exception of Ortal and Liron, they were all what you would consider bitches because they had to do it The Manly way.
Liron and Ortal did/do it their way.

You were a seceretary, you know how outsiders treat girls.
I know that I was often spoken to as a secreteary (see Yuval Shachnai) and I put my foot down and it stopped, it should have never been that way in the first place.

In Oovda, guys who were in the Packmatiot course were called הומואים.

The army is very, very paternalistic, but we need it and so I support it.

[hagar-972.livejournal.com]

I didn't say it wasn't paternalistic. But it isn't worse than the civilian society and I don't think it's the source of civilian society's illnesses; the other way around, if at all - army life is civilian life in high contrast.

The army didn't make Shachnai the way he was - see total sweathearts like Uri as proof. Girls who commision tend to be bitches prior to that. If you're good, it won't spoil you, regardless of your gender.

20 years old human male viewing same-age women as meat, you don't need uniform for that. Is all. Army life only make it more visible, it doesn't make it.

Plus the b/w attitude that girl presented in that article pissed me off. Beatifully phrased elephant shit is still shit, only more dangerous 'cause people might actually think it true just because it's so eloquent.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I didn't say you didn't say it wasn't, you said it wasn't "so paternalistic".
I just disagreed by saying it was extremely.

Indeed, Uri is a sweetheat, but there a whole lot more of Shachnai's than there are Uri's as you're well aware, also despite being "good guys" the officers I very much liked were very toned down versions of Shachnai, Ofir for example. Alon and Eshed are probably the few men I know treat women as they would other men, at least in the army. 20 year old males are as impressionable as a 16 year old, if they learn to respect women in the army, they'll respect women in unicersity/the work force.

And yes, elephant shit is elephant shit.

[hemlock-sholes.livejournal.com]

*shrug*

I thought having ideals meant you don't run away from problems.
There was this one girl a few years ago who didn't like the way the army treated girls... guess what? She became the first female pilot trainee.

She's a feminist... not this girl.

Civil disobedience should be left to those who will use it as a force of change... not to those who wish to better their life through it.

[hemlock-sholes.livejournal.com]

"Change" would be joining the army and changing it.

I think this is more along the lines of "denial"
As in - I don't like the army, so I'll ignore it.

Just my opinion :)

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

I agree, completely.

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

A questiion to a debator... How do you think I put my points across in the discussion above?

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Oops about the spelling.

[hemlock-sholes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, The spelling :)

Your points were good, though telegraphed.
As long as whoever is reading this knows something about Israel/the IDF - s/he'll understand.

However, your American friends will probably be quite lost...

Also, I think the expressions "patriarchal" and "paternalistic" are not quite correct in this context.
Males suffer as much as females in such environments, assuming they're not part of the higher-ups.
I think "male-chauvinist" would be better. Or is this not "in" anymore?

:)

Anyway, I spent 3 years serving directly under a woman, who was commanded by another woman.
My direct commander was quite maternal (IMO - others didn't think do). But her commander... a good example of being more manly-than-the-men...

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Let us not forget that you are the son of a Matriarch and the brother of three, very opinionated women :)

[hemlock-sholes.livejournal.com]

You forgot "Genius" :)
You also need to add a few "very"-s to your sentence.

G'night!

[eumelia.livejournal.com]

Don't push it... ;)

Good night, see you soon.