eumelia: (Default)
Eumelia ([personal profile] eumelia) wrote2007-02-24 12:10 pm

Rumination of the Goddess kind

I decided to get rid of the Spiritual Filter, because it's not something I'm ashamed of and not something that should be restricted from people who read this LJ.

For your convenience it is under the cut.

Many... well a few months ago, I wrote about my intention to try and combine my old-time religion (Agnostic Judaism) and my actual spiritual beliefs (Shamanistic Paganism).

With the current state in which I find Judaism that isn't going to work. I simply can't accept Judaism as it is today as the basis for my spiritual practice, it's too constrictive, too anachronistic, even with it being an evolving religion that keeps historical tradition, it has completely negated the female aspects of GD.
Like many Jews I try not to use GD's name in vain, mainly in writing which is why I don't write the whole word, only in fiction do I use the whole word.
But the Jewish GD is one I have a hard time wanting to spend time with, I'm Agnostic, because I have no way of proving or disproving the existence of a deity. A deity exists out of the power of belief and faith, it's a beautiful thing, and throughout my albeit short life, I have gone from Believer to Atheist and back again, though a few years ago I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter, if GD truly exists or not. The GD of which I speak, is unfortunately not mine. The GD of my people is a shadow of what the divine should be, because the concept is a direct reflection of the believers and most of the believers, at least in Israel, are out of touch with what I consider truly holy, or more the point, what should be considered equally holy.

In Judaism there is the a concept known as the Shechina or Shekinah, the spelling varies in English though in Hebrew it is written as שכינה, which comes from the root שכן which is literally translated as "to dwell". And the Shekinah is considered the presence of GD of Earth and thus considered merely a tiny piece of the universal GD of Judaism. This is the transformation that occurred over thousands of years where for reasons I still do not fully understand, the female principal was shushed, quited down and made mute. But seeing as they couldn't kill the spirit of their women, since they, ya know, ensured the continuity of their sons (their daughters weren't as important, obviously), the GDess remained in the silenced, almost negligible role as being GD on Earth, though not really, just a little bit.

It used to be that GD the celestial father and GDess the earth mother were equal, with different functions, same as between Human men and women, different but ultimately equal. Something shifted, but the balance tilted and the GDess was lost, silenced, still there but not heard which is worse than killing Her and making the body disappear at least then we wouldn't know any better and Ignorance is Bliss and all that Bullshit.

So Judaism as a Spiritual path is not good for me, though an identity, culture and mindset I can't get rid of it, that instilled paranoid criticism and guilt that we are not as good as our Makers (parents, GDs, whoever) wanted us to be.

It would seem that the more I think about, the more towards the female principal I go. Which I can't say is really surprising, I always felt more connected to Artemis (Greek Goddess of the hunt, nature, moon and girl children) than to any other deity.
I even have a figurine of her on my shelf, she's very beautiful.

I suppose it's back to Goddess Worship for me.

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 10:30 am (UTC)(link)
You know... I don't buy into "Celestial Father" and "Earth Mother". Both may be represented by a male or a female deity. To the ancient Egyptians, the Sky were a goddess - Nuth. In some myths, Tiamat was goddess of the Sky and the Ocean both.

I think that the identification of Earth = female is yet another tool of the oppressors of women. Humans use the earth, period. Some of us are just more nice about it than others - those who believe in sustainability - but still. All this "Mother Earth" stuff don't change it. Nobody 'uses' the Sky, though. The Sky symbolize achievement, peak, striving. See my point?

To me, there is a god and a goddess to everything.

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 10:32 am (UTC)(link)
*nods*
I'm still a bit stuck on Western Dogma.
But as you can see I'm working on it :)

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 10:44 am (UTC)(link)
And not surprisingly the movie "Dogma" has just started on TV. I love these little omens :)

[identity profile] ayellowbirds.livejournal.com 2007-02-25 05:54 pm (UTC)(link)
...and the earth was a god, Geb.

But, what does it say that Nut was still represented as a mother, with strong symbolism of giving birth, suckling, and nurturing?

I don't know that i'd agree that we "use the earth, period." We use parts of the earth (and those parts were symbolized by male deities in egyptian belief)... and one could just as easily say that we rely on the earth, i think. Also, we do use the sky- we use it as a medium for communication and travel, we use the rain that falls from it and the light that shines through it.

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-25 06:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Re 'using the Earth', I have exactly one word: agriculture. Agriculture is using the earth, plain and simple, and there's no way around it. Do you have idea of the environmental damage that 'cultivated' agriculture causes? Depletion of resources; damaging the soil coverage; ground water polution; disrupting the ecological balance; and probably more. 'Rely' seems a better word for humans and the sky - though most of the properties you raised are properties of the air, not of the sky. The Sky, as such, is not an actual, physical thing, and therefore cannot be 'used'. (Or at least, this is how I see it.)

I didn't bring Nut as an example of an empowering representation of women in ancient myths. I brought her merely as an example that the sky may also be represented as a women. (Too many people are stuck on the Greek mythology.)

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-25 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Or are just drawn towards it.
You've seen my house, we have many books and a huge amount of them to do with Mythology, can't help that as a tiny tot I liked Gaia more than Nut.

Bastet and Artemis, BTW are considered aspects of the same Goddess by the Hellenistic Egyptians :)

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-26 07:31 am (UTC)(link)
*nods* Most people, though - at least most Israelis - have just had more exposure to the Greek mythology than to others. No idea why.

Of those mythologies i'm familiar with - more or less - the Far Eastern ones probably caught me the least, and the non-Europeen Middle-Eastern ones the most (from Egyptian mythology to Sumerian), together with the Norse mythology - what little I know of it. I should proably read more on that.

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-26 06:09 pm (UTC)(link)
*nods* Most people, though - at least most Israelis - have just had more exposure to the Greek mythology than to others. No idea why.

probably because of the "Greek Mythology" children's book that was written several decades ago, I remember it from before my first grade- which means 2 decades at the very least, when I don't remember laying my hands on another mythology for a very long time(5 years min.).Remember also that much of modern western culture was at the very least influenced by Greek thought and culture- think of the subtext of the fact that many of the scientific and philosophical terms are in Greek, for example.

[identity profile] avgboojie.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 12:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I need to ask: why do deities need gender, anyway? I always kind of thought of the monotheistic god (in which I don't believe, bein an atheist in faith) as a non-sexual or pan-sexual entity, concieved of as male only because of the restricted nature of popular human thought. Even in judaism, in the more serious judaism, god is not considered to be male, but non-sexual. I think the need to make the dichotomy into male/female deities stem from the same disease that makes the people on the street concieve of god as that ominous male figure with long white beard and all that bullshit. Deities are just not human, they don't really need the human division into genders. They can have it all in one entity.
I, personally, like it better that way, I mean, as a way of thought. I don't like male/female being dichotomised, certainly not when it comes to powers of nature. It's all one power, non-sexual, non-differential, all-loving, etc.

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 12:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Obviously deities don't "need" or even "have" gender.
My own philosophical and theological ideas are long winded and need a whole post on their own.
I find it difficult to relate to GD as a one all power, it's very impersonal and is too much like Deism to make me feel spiritually connected to life (which to me is what faith and spirituality is about). Also, despite the fact that Jewish theology shows GD, as you say, non or pan-sexual, the prayers are given to a "King" and "Master", to a "Father". No "Queen", "Mistress" or "Mother" and that's what I feel lacks.

Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 01:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe it all started simply because there is no neutral gender in Hebrew?צורת הסתמי is male, and so the deity is referred to as male "by default".The Rambam wrote that trying to define the deity's bodily attributes was blasphemous because s/he/it has been defined to have no body and be beyond description(and so no bodily attributes).

Another point:all these attributes seem to be there as a way to acknowledge the deity's power over the praying person.How many powerful, non-negative female figures were there in the societies in which Judaism evolved(and was later propagated)?Not that many, if at all.It may have even been socially accepted that powerful women are bad by definition.Add in the fact that Judaism, by its very nature as a legalistic system, is immensely conservative and it may simply be a leftover from a society were powerful and positive women was literally an unthinkable concept.

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 02:06 pm (UTC)(link)
So the Deity is refered to as male not because it is believed to be male, but because the possibility of a powerful, positive female figure is unthinkable. I fail to see the effective difference here.

(Clarification: i'm not being offensive. I'm being sarcastic. Please don't take offense. Thanks.)

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 02:34 pm (UTC)(link)
The second point was totally separate from the first:)- i.e. given that religious Judaism refers(and thinks of) to the deity as male although the deity is supposedly bodiless and without gender, why?

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 02:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Gotacha.

And - wanted to say this before and forgot - צורת הסתמי is everything but neutral. That the male form is used as the general, 'neutral' form, in Hebrew and in other languages, is just proof of the disinclusion of women.

Other than language, I think the most striking examples of the disinclusion of women may be found in medicine. The most famous example: more women than men die from heart attacks. This is also because the symptoms of heart attacks in women are different than in men, and most doctors are still unaware of this. A more daily example: you wouldn't believe the number of doctors who don't know that NSAIDS lower blood pressure. Result? A woman prescribed an NSAID to treat an inflamation she has might reach the ER because the doctor gave her a dosage that'll crash her BP. Men's BP doesn't drop as sharply as women's, and generally is not as low to begin with. But everyone know NSAIDS are bad for the heart - and heart diseases are that much more common in men than in women.

(NSAIDS: non-steroid anti-inflamatory drugs. Ibuprofen [Adex, Advil, Nurofen], Naproxen [Nerocin, Naproxi], Etoricoxib [Arcoxia], Vioxx, etc.)

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 03:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Please, reread- I said "because there is no neutral gender".

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 03:54 pm (UTC)(link)
As to the doctors thing: that's medical negligence to my way of thinking.Half of their patients are women, after all, they should take care to check differences that are as simple as greater vulnerability to side-effects of common drugs.

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 04:08 pm (UTC)(link)
What is the precentenge of non-Caucasian people among patients in need of organ transplantation? Yes, there is little to no MHC characterisation (tissue typing) data available for non-Caucasian people.

Scary, isn't it?

Medicine is slowly becoming less biased. The heart attack thing is at least somewhat known, nowdays, and becoming more known with time. Five years ago it was virtually unheard of. As for the low BP thing - well, nearly all medical people (not just doctors) will say that low BP is not a medical problem. Tell that to anyone with a BP under 100/80...

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 03:19 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know, figurines Ashtoret (Phoenician Goddess of love and fertility) and Anat (Phoenician Goddess of love and war) were found in archaeological sites over Israel in areas where it known to have Hebrew populations.

Also, the Hewbrews were slaves for a number of generation in Egypt which are very egalitarian in their theology, I mean Isis and Nephtys and Nut, are just as important as Ra, Osiris and Horus.

The Hebrew language is male, its default usage of pronouns are male, making it very, very clear that maleness precedes femaleness which is the exception and the "Other".

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 03:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not sure the Egyptian theology was all that egalitarian OTOH I don't know it that well, so several questions:How are Isis, Nephtys, etc. portrayed beyond their power? positive? negative? varied?Where are their powers "placed" i.e. are they concentrated in the household or are they free to do as they want?

Also, another possibility is that Judaism became non-tolerant as a counter to these egalitarian theologies- Judaism is full of borders between in-group and out-group.Take Kosher for example- it creates a border on the one of most basic of social activities: the people you can eat with.

Re: Several thoughts on the subject

[identity profile] ayellowbirds.livejournal.com 2007-02-25 05:32 pm (UTC)(link)
The big problem with talking about the old Egyptian beliefs is that people tend to treat it as a unified pantheon, with set relationships that don't vary. This is probably because it's just easier to approach it that way, but it is by no means accurate. Most modern people who know of Seth will identify him as an evil god opposed to the others, but in the past there were rulers who incorporated Seth's name into their own, and he was identified as a protector of both the ruler and Ra. The portrayals of the individual goddesses and gods varies widely throughout history, mainly due to which deity's followers were in power. Not surprisingly, a person who is devoted to Aset (Isis, if you want to use the Greek form) attributes the most power and range of abilities to her.

Basically, saying that one deity is as (or more) important as another deity is more a matter of in what time and place you are discussing them.

[identity profile] hagar-972.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 01:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, it depends on whether you're monotheistic or pagan at heart.

If you're of the monotheistic persuasion than yes, there's only one Deity and they're all-encompassing: pan-sexual and whatnot. If you're from the pagan side of the map, though, then everything and anything will have a deity: the natures of the particular deity and the particular entity will be related, and some deities will be more major/minor than others.

As I said above to Mel, though, I don't believe that any particular entity will have only a male or a female deity; I believe that any entity has the potential for both.

[identity profile] antongarou.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 02:03 pm (UTC)(link)
What are your sources for an equal female principle being present in ancient Judaism?*interested*

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I unfortunately have no actual source other than hearsay and heresy :)

[identity profile] asatruteacher.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmmm a few points. I know in my faith, we have strong goddesses and don't apologize for them being powerful. If you look at Greek and other Med cultures, you'll find that most of the powerful femal deieties are portrayed as being shrill, (Hera) or men-hating (Artemis/Diana) or evil (Hecate).

In the northern tradition, Freyja, who gets first choice of the battleslain before even Odin, is one of our most beloved Goddesses by men and women. (She was so beloved that the early church did everything in its power to wipe out even her rune). Skadi, challenged the Gates of Asgard itself over the death of her father.

As for the Earth being feminine, there are some suggestions that our Earth Goddess Nerthrus is simply Njord (a God of Fjord's and the sea) who turned himself female in order to bear Freyr and Freyja.

Frigg has more knowledge of whatis to happen than even the Allfather, and has on more than one occassion turned the tide of battle against her husband's wishes.

Perhaps you should look to the Northern Gods before you decide on a virgin Goddess who has a history of hating and killing men.

Danny

[identity profile] eumelia.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 09:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I like the Eddas and Sagas of the Northern Gods, but never felt as connected to them as I did with the Greeks and the Egyptians. I don't know why, I suppose it's because I like in a med country and that was the culture I was exposed to.

Artemis has been a part of my life since I was little girl, I never considered her virginity anything other than the fact that she preferred the company of women to men, and as for hating them, I also never felt she hated me, she loved her brother Apollo (who was very much a misogynist, if we look at the way he treated his the women he pursued like Daphne and Cassandra). And Acteon was a hunting companion of hers, it was when he stepped into her space was when she punished him.

The Earth is feminine to me because I always thing of Gaia when I think of the Earth.

[identity profile] beckyzoole.livejournal.com 2007-02-24 08:08 pm (UTC)(link)
You might be interested in the [livejournal.com profile] jewitch community, although it's not been very active recently. I'd like to see more activity there, though.

[identity profile] hakuzo.livejournal.com 2007-02-25 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)
*hugs* I am very happy to hear all this from you. =D The Shekinah is equivilent to my own Sophia. She's beautiful, and I miss the days that I interacted with Her more. Any time you want to talk about the Goddess, or anything else, for that matter, I'd love to take up the subject with you. =)